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[David]

Well see, this is the real crux of the matter. While proponents of Obama Care swear there will be no rationing, almost in the same breath they also say so what if there is rationing, we have it now. Only difference is that it will move out of private hands to the government and we all know how efficient and well run government health care has been to this point.

If there is rationing now, and there is, there will be rationing in the future but because the government won't have the funds to pay for it, the rationing will continue to rise. The taxes and fees will continue to rise, the deductibles, oh sorry, spend downs will continue to rise and the need for supplemental health insurance will rise, except that there will be little to no money left in our wallets after buying food to pay for it.

It is so amazing to me that people can read all this and with a straight face say the government is looking out for our best interests. The goal is clear. The bankruptcy of this nation.

David

[roadrunner]

Why have that as a goal? We're already bankrupt, and health care is a major reason for it. The only way to get out of bankruptcy is to cure the cause of it.

[David]

Why have that as a goal? We're already bankrupt, and health care is a major reason for it. The only way to get out of bankruptcy is to cure the cause of it.

Do you remember when the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics fell? They went bankrupt...we haven't seen bankruptcy yet. Our economy is still strong enough to keep going a little longer. But there will come a time when the wealth of this nation is gone. When people won't be able to pay taxes and the government won't be able to collect any. The paper the dollar is printed on will be worth more than the face value of the bill. I have a Ruble from that era. It was mailed to me in some marketing promotional piece. Can you imagine a marketing company in, say, China, sending out a dollar in a mailing? It will have novelty value only at that point.

If I didn't agree before that health care was going to bankrupt the US, I would agree now that Obama care will.

David

[roadrunner]

You don't think the present system is bankrupting America, when the insurance companies want to raise their rates 18.5% this year alone? Why are you supporting that sort of robbery? Honestly, sometimes I think you bow down to the god of corporations and money.

[djeaton]

What do you mean by "country", the government or the people?  I think all the deficit spending (some of it on healthcare) is bankrupting the government.  Yet the solution isn't to add more people to the roles of government-insured.  The private sector can do it at a profit.  Let them.  Individuals do use up all their money on occasion on health care, but that is because of their worldview that health is an entitlement.  We have this expectation that we should like between 80 and 90 years old and that financial investment to make sure that happens is a wise investment.  It's a choice we make.  That choice has consequences.  I just chose to cancel an upcoming doctor appointment.  Why?  Because I couldn't afford it and it isn't a right that I should expect you to pay on my behalf.
D.

[djeaton]

BTW, Just turned on Fox News to see Glenn Beck's special on H1N1 and the H1N1 "prison camps".  He may even touch on the controversy over the vaccines.  Anyway, their legal expert was on and talking about the health care bill and new CBO numbers.  He said that it would have to cover illegals - even though illegals are not factored into the cost.  Turns out any federal program offered to the public cannot discriminate based on place of birth.  Courts have already applied it to education and are expected to apply it to any health care plan as well.  Personally, like I've said before, if it is a self-sustaining insurance that people purchase, I have no problem with *anyone* purchasing it.  I've just never seen anything the government did that actually paid for itself though.  He also pointed out that the CBO refused to answer whether or not the healthcare bill would bring down the cost curve of expected expenses on it.  Hmmmm....wonder why....
D.

[djeaton]

Want a prediction?  I'm going to play prophet here.  I was named after one, I may as well pretend, right?   I predict that some version of healthcare is going to pass.  It will be signed into law quicker than I could attach a ball and chain to my kids' ankles.  It will promise cost savings by reducing Medicare.  Then, when it comes time to pay the piper, they won't cut Medicare.  They may pretend to curb growth and call it a cut, but we won't be saving anything from one area to pay for another.  They will say it is because the Seniors and Doctors don't want it.  And they would be right.  But we will be stuck with a Medicare budget more than it is now, still going broke, and we will end up with the new healthcare on top of the existing programs.  Why do I believe this?  Because that is the way things work and "change" is nothing but a slogan.  Plus, the CBO agrees.

These projections assume that the proposals are enacted and remain unchanged throughout the next two decades, which is often not the case for major legislation. For example, the sustainable growth rate (SGR) mechanism governing Medicare’s payments to physicians has frequently been modified (either through legislation or administrative action) to avoid reductions in those payments. The projected savings for the proposal reflect the cumulative impact of a number of specifications that would constrain payment rates for providers of Medicare services. In particular, the proposal would increase payment rates for physicians’ services for 2010, but those rates would be reduced by about 25 percent for 2011 and then remain at current-law levels (that is, as specified under the SGR) for subsequent years. Under the proposal, increases in payment rates for many other providers would be held below the rate of inflation (in expectation of ongoing productivity improvements in the delivery of health care). The projected longer-term savings for the proposal also assume that the Medicare Commission is relatively effective in reducing costs—beyond the reductions that would be achieved by other aspects of the proposal—to meet the targets specified in the legislation. The long-term budgetary impact could be quite different if those provisions were ultimately changed or not fully implemented.

[pippin]

But we haaaave to pass health reform Daniel!  If it SAYS health Care reform, that means it will do it, riiiight?   Cuz see?  We're bankrupt as a nation becasue we DON'T have it!  Our bankruptcy has nothing to do with the fact that the Obama administration has out spent every single administration combined since since George Washington.  Nope, it's ALL health care.  I know, becasue that's what they said.  And the CBO is just a wing of the Republican party anyway and that makes them a bunch of evil haters that hate.

[roadrunner]

The private sector can do it at a profit.  Let them.  Individuals do use up all their money on occasion on health care, but that is because of their worldview that health is an entitlement

Sure, a 20% profit is what they make, even after paying their CEOs millions and spending more millions of lobbying. If their profit margins were more in the neighborhood of 5%, they paid their CEOs thousands, and they didn't spend anything on lobbying, then I'd agree with you.

Individuals use up their money occasionally? Do you realize that 1/4 of all home foreclosures are due to medical costs, and at least half of those people have health insurance?

A worldview of entitlement? That's the worldview of the health insurance companies. I don't understand how anyone can be so cold as to think that people don't deserve to have health, especially you, Daniel, with all the complaining you did about your health situation and how 'unfair' your insurance company was to try to deny you coverage, etc. Were you not feeling a strong sense of entitlement? Why didn't you just say that it's ok if the insurance company wants to kick me around, after all, I don't deserve to be treated for my pain? That's what you are asking others to do, yet for you it's different?

[pippin]

Yeah!  Apples equals oranges!  right on!

[David]

You don't think the present system is bankrupting America, when the insurance companies want to raise their rates 18.5% this year alone? Why are you supporting that sort of robbery? Honestly, sometimes I think you bow down to the god of corporations and money.

Right now we have freedom of choice. Right now insurance companies are seeing a drop in revenues because of unemployment rises, yet at the same time our population is getting older and more expensive to treat. Would you operate at a loss? Not for long. Eventually you would go bankrupt. The insurance companies are upping their rates because they need to survive and have cash flow to pay claims, pure and simple. We need to look at reducing health care costs FIRST then see what needs to be fixed at the insurance companies. The government needs to fix their own problems with Medicare BEFORE they take on the single largest industry they've ever attempted to control.

David

[pippin]

If you've never started or run a business, rr, you should.  It would help you understand what's going on a lot better.

[Seolfor]

Actually Pippin, that's not really true. There is no "single thing" going on. But, I start up businesses.
The current one is a renovations contracting business.
I find that the biggest problem is with employees and dealing with beurocracies runs second. It's pretty easy to work yourself to death trying to make others happy, pay high wages for second-rate work, keep compliance issues from mounting up, and self manage on top of it, to say nothing of "schmoozing" for company reasons and keeping the whole thing going. Cost over-runs are really difficult to contain. There is no magic formula. It's the hidden costs that make business difficult. I am also my own bookeeper, lawyer, salesman, and am the guy who has to take out the garbage at the end of the day.
And, on top of that I've been sick. ( dermatitus herpetiformis ) which I'm getting a handle on though it's slow going. Seems I have celliac disease. Canadian medicare has worked for me and I pay nothing for it now that I'm 65.
I also explained why that is so on a former post. I've heard people trash the Canadian system with partial truths but's that's what they are. Canada has all the same problems as the US does, in diamonds if not in spades.
In my opinion government isn't the problem. That's far too abstract. The problem is too big a class of persons which serve the government and themselves. It's the invisible administrative arm of the government which does "bad bad things". They're the real "socialists" and always have been.
Administration produces nothing, drives costs, and controls everything. It's the invisible government. 

[pippin]

Actually Pippin, that's not really true. There is no "single thing" going on. But, I start up businesses.
The current one is a renovations contracting business.
I find that the biggest problem is with employees and dealing with beurocracies runs second. It's pretty easy to work yourself to death trying to make others happy, pay high wages for second-rate work, keep compliance issues from mounting up, and self manage on top of it, to say nothing of "schmoozing" for company reasons and keeping the whole thing going. Cost over-runs are really difficult to contain. There is no magic formula. It's the hidden costs that make business difficult. I am also my own bookeeper, lawyer, salesman, and am the guy who has to take out the garbage at the end of the day.
And, on top of that I've been sick. ( dermatitus herpetiformis ) which I'm getting a handle on though it's slow going. Seems I have celliac disease. Canadian medicare has worked for me and I pay nothing for it now that I'm 65.
I also explained why that is so on a former post. I've heard people trash the Canadian system with partial truths but's that's what they are. Canada has all the same problems as the US does, in diamonds if not in spades.
In my opinion government isn't the problem. That's far too abstract. The problem is too big a class of persons which serve the government and themselves. It's the invisible administrative arm of the government which does "bad bad things". They're the real "socialists" and always have been.
Administration produces nothing, drives costs, and controls everything. It's the invisible government. 

First, I'm sorry you're sick.  Second, you may not pay for care now, but you have been, and probably continue to pay via taxes.
Yeah, employees are the toughest to work with, I don't know about up there, but down here people have this attitude that you should be glad they even show up.  And that's just becasue you see them everyday.  But then bureaucrats and government types are right on their heels.

Maybe it would be clearer and more understandable to say it as the corruption within the government is the problem.  Because that's what the shadow government might be considered: a corruption of governments intended goal.  We know it's there...Democrats, Republicans...whatever...the all are in it or have some stake in it...Which is why we only see pushes to expand their power base, raise taxes and slowly take over the private sector.  it's a bloodless coupe going on right now.

But, in the meantime rr should still attempt a business.  Might be good life experience for the kid.

[roadrunner]

It would be good life experience for you, too. I don't believe you have any idea how to run a business, although I have managed one. Your simplistic outlook is just that, simplistic.

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