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[facedown]

Does anyone know Andrew Murray? I don't know how famous he is. He seems to have been a very godly man who lived in the past.

Anyway, I listened to one of his books and in it he talks about sin and obedience. He says that Jesus gives us the victory over sin and that the christians only have to believe this and then it becomes a reality.
I ask myself if this is true. How many christians are there who can honestly say they don't sin anymore? If this stuff doesn't work in reality then where is the sense of dragging others down by telling them that they could live sinless if they only believed enough? Then you feel even worse when you sin.
I really ask myself what is achievable and what is realistic and what is simply fundamentalistic, dangerous nonsense? I mean not everything which sounds bold and faithful automatically has to be good and helpful.
Making claims which in the end are not true doesn't help anymore. This is the same problem as with healing. Telling christians that nobody needs to be sick anymore sounds like huge faith but if it doesn't work in reality then it only causes pain.

[DennisS]

I've read one of Andrew Murray's books, on John 15, abiding in the vine.  I've got another one or two to read.  Seems orthodox and all.

l still sin.  I hope to do this less frequently.

The cross wasn't just some experiment.  Jesus entered into our sinfulness and was obedient to the Father throughout his earthly life.  Jesus held nothing back.  Jesus took upon himself that which we cannot bear or overcome (sin and death).  The burden of sin has been removed from the believer.  We tend to write about this as past tense, but this is really an ongoing burden and surrender.

A seminary professor died of cancer.  Shortly before she died, she recognized that she had been healed through Christ.  She was aware that there was nothing more the doctors could do but keep her comfortable.  She knew her time on earth would not be much longer.  Yet she wanted people to know that she had experienced healing.  She now had great peace and joy.

We are all going to die.  I know an 11 year old whose days remaining on this earth are probably fewer than the number of fingers we have.  He trusts Jesus.  We will be greatly hurt by his death because of cancer.  And yet, to a certain extent we will be celebrating his healing.

There are faith healers running around with bad theology and making people feel guilty - that the people don't have enough faith if they continue in not being healed here.  Last time I checked, the mortality rate is 100%.

We don't have enough understanding to grasp the whole picture of what God is doing with us.  Thus, we have to rely upon faith.  Paul said he would prefer, by far, to go to be with the Lord, rather than stay here.

[facedown]

Murray also seems to believe in divine healing. At sermonaudio.com one can listen to many of his books. He seems to have been a charismatic or pentecostal.

I find it hard in all those things to find the "healthy balance". I mean you can ask all kinds of tricky questions and push believers in a corner. For example if you ask a believer wether he still has to sin and he says yes then you basically have him. You can say that the bible says that with every temptation God also offers a way out and then you can accuse him of unbelief and make him feel miserable.
Now what is the healthy balance? I have listened to so many sermons on sin and overcoming sin and fighting temptations but I have nowhere found really helpful advice. You simply will not find anything concrete. Usually you get phrases which don't really help you, or at least me.
For example stuff like "you have to consider yourself dead to sin". What does this mean? How do I do this?
Let's say I watch TV and I see a half naked woman on there and then I'm directly tempted then what do I do?
What's frustrating is that it is simply impossible to protect yourself from everything which tempts. If you are on a diet and at the same time work in a candy factory then you also won't make it.
If the flesh which always reacts to temptations could somehow be overcome then I could imagine how could live and not sin but if the flesh always reacts then I dont know how this is supposed to work.
The bible also says many things which can be interpreted in a way which really sound like it is possible to not sin anymore and some christians who most likely mean well and want to be faithful and take the bible as literal as possible then preach that it's possible to not sin anymore but if this interpretation isn't right then it only causes frustration.

I can only speak for myself but hearing sermons about sin and obedience never encourage me. I only feel like I'm set under pressure.

Those who preach about obedience most likely feel like they are being obedient. But how do you know wether you are obedient enough? When you think you're doing everything right you might still be missing the mark all the time.

[mark in frankfort]

Facedown: there is no sin without a choice. thus, it is possible to live above sin by making right choices. the way to consistently make right choices is to be filled with and obediant to the Holy Spirit.

in the example you gave above about seeing a woman on tv, you have not sinned just because you saw her, you sin at the point where you covet, actively lust after her. it takes some doing, for sure, but you must train your mind to reject such thoughts. it can be done with the Lord's help.

one thing that can help alot with this is simply don't watch television.

[facedown]

Facedown: there is no sin without a choice. thus, it is possible to live above sin by making right choices. the way to consistently make right choices is to be filled with and obediant to the Holy Spirit.

I often hear something like this as an answer and solution. You simply gotta be filled with the Holy Spirit and then everything will be fine. But this doesn't help me if I can't get this "filling". Do you refer to the baptizm of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues? I tried to get it several times and also tried to speak in tongues but I have doubts about wether it is real.
The disciples in the book of Acts started speaking in tongues automatically. Nobody had encouraged them to. They did not even know this existed. They somehow must have sensed it or felt a desire to do it. But today it is totally different. Today you are told "Now you have to start speaking in tongues" and then people search in their minds for words and ty to produce tongues. This really makes me doubt wether it is genuine. When I have to produce it and try to come up with words then it's most likely not real and I cannot simply speak in tongues if I at the same time feel like it's not genuine.

in the example you gave above about seeing a woman on tv, you have not sinned just because you saw her, you sin at the point where you covet, actively lust after her. it takes some doing, for sure, but you must train your mind to reject such thoughts. it can be done with the Lord's help.

The problem is what do you do if simply being exposed to something tempting directly affects you and you cannot shake it off anymore?
For example, imagine you're on a diet trying to lose weight. Then you see a donut commercial on TV and the whole day the thought of donuts simply keeps haunting you and you feel totally miserable and cannot shake it off until you finally give in and stuff yourself with donuts.
Then what do you do if you can't escape the donut commericals all day?

[mark in frankfort]

Woman on television, donut on television. seems like a lot of sin comes to us through television.

i refuse to debate "tongues" at all. i will simply state the truth i have observed: i have known many people who have lived holy, Godly lives without tongues.

do you want to live a holy life? then if so, you will give all priority to doing so and will train yourself to make right choices consistently. it works the same for everybody.

Facedown, God bless you, i am totally willing to help you find and walk in the Truth on this matter. i will not argue about it whatsoever. what i have told you is the simple truth. sin is all about choice, from the Garden of Eden til this very day.

[facedown]

Woman on television, donut on television. seems like a lot of sin comes to us through television.

i refuse to debate "tongues" at all. i will simply state the truth i have observed: i have known many people who have lived holy, Godly lives without tongues.

do you want to live a holy life? then if so, you will give all priority to doing so and will train yourself to make right choices consistently. it works the same for everybody.

Facedown, God bless you, i am totally willing to help you find and walk in the Truth on this matter. i will not argue about it whatsoever. what i have told you is the simple truth. sin is all about choice, from the Garden of Eden til this very day.

I know, you can always say if a person sins that she did not have to do it and could have resisted but it also makes a difference how much you are tempted. I would rather not be tempted at all than to be tempted all the time and then struggle.

As for tongues...
Of course there are christians who get along without them. Does this mean that they are of no use?
There are also christians in a wheelchair who get along well but this doesn't mean that legs are of no use.
To me it makes no sense to believe that the first century christians had all these things like tongues and miracles and
then after the apostles it all vanished and today we have nothing but the bible. It simply makes not much sense.

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