Piercing The Darkness

Advanced search

>July is deadliest month of Afghan war for US
<div class="hnews hentry item">
Wildfire explodes in rural hills near Los Angeles
<div class="hnews hentry item">
Recovery loses speed as consumers turn cautious
<div class="hnews hentry item">
Obama to sell auto bailout good news in Michigan
<div class="hnews hentry item">
Arizona sheriff not relenting after court ruling
<div class="hnews hentry item">
GOP gets wish: Rangel case in campaign season
<div class="hnews hentry item">
FBI access to e-mail and Web records raises fears
<div class="hnews hentry item">
Source: J-Lo close to deal for `American Idol'
<div class="hnews hentry item">
Oswalt traded to Phillies; Tejada, Cantu also move
<div class="hnews hentry item">

[facedown]

My friend is about to become a missionary and he always talks about "following Jesus" and that you gotta take up your cross and that your righteousness depends on how obedient you are and stuff like that.
I ask myself can doing much for God also become a danger in the sense that
you start putting your confidence in how well you are following Jesus?
This is a quote from an email which he sent me. To me this sounds concerning.

You salvation is not measured by the degree of
your sin. It depends on your genuineness and desire to serve God which
means repentance.

[DennisS]

I grew up in a denomination which puts a lot of "faith" in doing things.  This leads to doing things for people in the hopes that God will notice - rather than doing it because you want them to be encouraged and know that they are loved - by you, and by God.

I've come to the place where I put my trust in Jesus for salvation.  It is in the strength and love of God that will be the "cause" of my salvation.  God so loved the world...that whoever believes (trusts) in Jesus will be saved.  There are plenty of passages which makes it clear that we don't have the power to save ourselves, so we must fully rely upon God.

That being said, there is something to be said for actually getting out there and serving God.  The Bible mentions storing up in Heaven where moth and rust cannot destroy.  Works are said to follow us.  And there are passages which do suggest that part of the judgment is based on works - but this part is not about salvation itself, but points to a greater reward.

"Doing" can indeed be a trap - one that is dangerous for faith, health, and attitude - if done for the wrong reasons.  If it's about building a resume so that everyone can see how important and good you are, then it's the wrong reason.  If the sole purpose is to glorify God, then this is truly the right "attitude".

A shoe cobbler can serve God by seeking to glorify God through his work and through caring for all who step into his shop.  A missionary can also serve God by seeking to glorify God through his work, and caring for the people.  Is one of these more noble?  NO.  But being faithful to what purpose and tasks that we are called to is how we show our faith and faithfulness - to ourselves, and to God.

[facedown]

But what do you think about those quotes? I would like to hear what others think about them. Do they sound sound?

I simply feel kinda uneasy when I read some of his stuff. 
Is it okay when you take the stuff about having to pick up your cross which Jesus said to jews under the old covenant and then make this a requirement for salvation?
When Jesus was talking to the jews was he basically teaching soteriology for new testament christians?

Simple saying "I accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior"
does NOT save you. Even the demons believe that and shudder (James 2).
When it comes to repentance, it means that you have turned from your
lifestyle of sin to follow Jesus. Jesus says that you must pick up your
cross and follow him. Think about what this means and what the cross is.
If you are not following him and you are not showing your repentance by
praying against temptation, praying for God's help, and fighting the
good fight... then I am afraid that you are not likely saved. If you are
genuine in your commitment to God and follow him, then you can say you
are saved although that does not mean you are sinless.

[DennisS]

Romans 8:28 - In everything God is working for the good of those who love him, according to his purposes (that's the purposes of God, not ours).

Proverb 22:29 - Show me a man diligent in his business and he will stand before kings and not ordinary people.

Colossians 3:17 - And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

In a way, we are all missionaries - wherever we are, but especially when and where God has called us to serve (whether fixing shoes, teaching, preaching, etc).

If your friend is called to the mission field, and it is of God - then Amen!  God can certainly lay things on our hearts.

Unfortunately, many look at the Great Commission and focus on the part that says "GO".  But that is not where the emphasis is.  Instead, the emphasis is "Make Disciples".  As you go (through life), make disciples!

[DennisS]

If three out of four Americans call themselves Christians, we're all in big trouble - because three out of four Americans don't live like Christians. Christianity becomes confused when everyone is a Christian but no one is following Christ...

  (by Ed Stetzer, quoted in Christianity Today, January 2010)

Plenty of folks use the term "following Christ".

[facedown]

But is "following Jesus" even a requirement for salvation?

There are christians, I think they're dispensationalists, who basically say what Jesus taught the jews in the gospels does not apply to the salvation of new covenant christians and that only what Paul taught is relevant for christians.
I think that this view solves a lot of problems regarding works which simply come up when you quote the stuff which Jesus said and then try to combine it with sola fide.
You cant say it's faith alone and then say yeah but you gotta pick up your cross and follow Jesus and hate your father and mother and give all your money away.
But on the other hand if Jesus knew that what he was saying in the gospels did not apply to gentile christians then why did he even say it? What would be the sense of teaching stuff which would soon be replaced by new teachings which Paul was given?

[DennisS]

Paul points to Christ - no doubt about it.  Were you baptized into Paul?  No way.  I follow Paul only in the sense that he is in the great procession following Christ.  Jesus said that he alone is the way, the truth, and the life - there's no other way to the Father.

Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. (Mt 10:37-39).

In this sense, Jesus is to be our highest priority - seeking relationship, seeking his will....seeking to follow him, to let go of the things which hold us back, going around those things which appear as roadblocks - thus clinging to the cross in the sense of putting our trust fully in Jesus.  There are a couple more passages in Matthew where Jesus says to follow him, 16:24 & 19:21, and the corresponding passages in Mark and Luke.

Those who suggest following Paul's teachings are basically slamming the divinity of Christ, so I would think that more an assault upon faith and challenge the origin of such a teaching.

Paul said to follow his example in how to live, but he always pointed to Christ and his cross:

10 Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters. 12 What I mean is that each of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to proclaim the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its power (1 Cor 1:10-17).

[facedown]

No, this is not what they are saying.

They do not attack Jesus' divinity. They simply say that while Jesus was on earth he was talking to old covenant jews and he was not giving requirements for gentile christians on how to be saved.
When you want to know how gentiles get saved then Paul is our source because he was personally instructed by Jesus and given all the infos he needed.
The question is basically does the things which Jesus said to the jews apply to christians and was Jesus even talking about salvation when he said things like: You gotta follow me and pick up your cross.
Some say Jesus was not talking about salvation but about discipleship.
For example Jesus told the rich man to follow him and get rid of his money.
The rich man declined.
Was Jesus talking about the costs of salvatio? Then it wouldnt be faith alone but faith plus "you gotta do this and that".

[David]

Unbelievers are likely to say anything, Face. The Disciples were instructed to take the Gospel worldwide. Not just to Jews. If that were the case then promises made to Abraham would be broken. God is not a liar.

David

[facedown]

I am not taking about unbelievers. I think they're called dispensationalists.

[David]

I am not taking about unbelievers. I think they're called dispensationalists.

I've been called that although I don't fully understand what that means. If its man's rules, then call it legalism and stay away from it. Those in the church saying it replaced the Jews are in error. It is heresy.

David

[facedown]

I don't know if you know what I mean.

• Calvinism is unbiblical by DennisS [July 29, 2010, 11:25:14 PM]
• Wow...what if Rush said t... by roadrunner [July 29, 2010, 11:15:36 PM]
• Waiting for Superman by DanielH [July 29, 2010, 06:40:07 PM]
• 501c3 ministries and chur... by DennisS [July 29, 2010, 05:00:04 PM]
• John MacArthur openly tea... by DennisS [July 29, 2010, 12:52:32 PM]
• Small details, a NIV read... by DennisS [July 28, 2010, 09:17:25 PM]
• Cat gives birth to dog? by facedown [July 28, 2010, 07:14:36 AM]
• This makes me damn angry! by facedown [July 27, 2010, 04:04:35 PM]
• Twilight series by DennisS [July 25, 2010, 10:32:59 PM]
• Beware: Zombies! by David [July 24, 2010, 06:48:25 PM]
• T-shirt message I liked..... by Winter [July 24, 2010, 03:39:37 PM]
• Youth Turn on Obama by Jewel [July 24, 2010, 03:02:44 PM]
• When Calvinism strikes by facedown [July 24, 2010, 09:31:44 AM]
• Last trumpet referring to... by Jewel [July 23, 2010, 06:50:54 PM]
• Obama: Krauthammer's ana... by Jewel [July 23, 2010, 06:06:34 PM]

Members

• Total Members: 89
• Latest: catmancurtis

Stats

• Total Posts: 11256
• Total Topics: 976
• Online Today: 6
• Online Ever: 111
• (August 25, 2009, 01:43:41 PM)

Users Online

• Users: 0
• Guests: 6
• Total: 6