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[facedown]

Who of you believes the rapture could happen any moment?
I don't understand how christians can believe this cause this verse here clearly says that this day (the rapture) does not happen until the antichrist has been revealed. This means: No antichrist, no rapture.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[roadrunner]

...for 'that' day shall not come until....

Which day is 'that' day? What day is he speaking of? The verse immediately preceding the one that was quoted says

"2Th 2:2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

The day that he is referring to is the day of Christ, or the day of the Lord, which is not the day that the Lord returns to gather His own. 

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 Jer 46:10 For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

[facedown]

If what you say is true then I don't understand why Paul said it.
I mean the christians there were scared they had missed the rapture.
If now Paul writes them that the day of the Lord, the second coming, will not come until the antichrist has been revealed then how does this help them?
Then they could still have missed the rapture. 

[David]

Revelation also talks about the wrath of God but I'm certain, despite the popular teaching otherwise, that Christians will still be here. I, for one, believe that as God protected Israel from Egypt's plagues, as He protected Daniel in the Lion's Den and the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace that He will protect us because He clearly says that we are not appointed to wrath.

When Jesus returns there will be wrath unleashed upon the Earth, but the catching away of the living will not happen before the dead in Christ are resurrected and that happens at the last day.

David

[roadrunner]

Yes, unfortunately, there will still be Christians here, but it will because of their own lack, not because Jesus appointed it so.

Face, you are right in your assessment....they believed they had missed the rapture and were in the Tribulation. But what Paul is saying is, no, you are not in the Tribulation, you have not missed the rapture, because first the antichrist must be revealed. So the question is, why were they so upset? If they had been taught that they had to go through the Tribulation then they wouldn't have been so confused. They were upset because they had been taught by Paul previously that they were NOT to go through the rapture, and here they thought they were in it because of false teaching by others. So they were upset and confused. Paul was telling them to remember what he had said....the Tribulation had not come and they were not in it.

[David]

Yes, unfortunately, there will still be Christians here, but it will because of their own lack, not because Jesus appointed it so.

What do you mean?

David

[roadrunner]

Not all Christians will be taken in the rapture.

[Christie]

You didn't read far enough, Face, into that chapter of II Thessalonians--here are the verses that go along with that one:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition...

...[verse 4 is a description of anti-Christ]...

...Remember ye not that when I was with you I told you these things?

And, now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders..."[II Thessalonians 2:3-9 KJV]

The apostle Paul is speaking to them[and to us] about the sequence of events, in verse 3, but, as he further explains, he adds something that helps make the sequence of events a bit clearer--but, basically, only if you believe that, "he who now letteth" is God's Holy Spirit[the Church is the Bride of Christ, so I doubt it would be referred to as "he"]--so, when God's Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"--[out of the way of anti-Christ]--then, anti-Christ can be revealed--because, when God's Holy Spirit is called back up to heaven, we will be going along, too, since we are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise", once we've asked Christ to be our Lord and Savior[II Corinthians 1:22]--

--that is, if you believe in a Rapture of the Church by Christ prior to the beginning of God's wrath being poured out onto all who remain here on earth, during what is called the 'Tribulation' period, or the "time of Jacob's trouble", etc., that is--if you don't believe, you don't believe, though--it's basically left to be between you and the Lord, since most Christian denominations seem to have abrogated their responsibilities towards God and Christ, and the Body of Christ, so they don't know what to make of all of that, and generally don't bother with teaching much about it--they show the world merely a "form of godliness" but, actually, they clearly deny "it's power"[II Timothy 3:5], in my opinion.

I'm one who believes in the 'pre-Tribulation' Rapture of the Church by Christ--and, yes, I believe that the Bible teaches that it can happen at any time--and, it's been known down through the years, as our "Blessed Hope".

[David]

Not all Christians will be taken in the rapture.

[David]

...The apostle Paul is speaking to them[and to us] about the sequence of events, in verse 3, but, as he further explains, he adds something that helps make the sequence of events a bit clearer--but, basically, only if you believe that, "he who now letteth" is God's Holy Spirit[the Church is the Bride of Christ, so I doubt it would be referred to as "he"]--so, when God's Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"--[out of the way of anti-Christ]--then, anti-Christ can be revealed--because, when God's Holy Spirit is called back up to heaven, we will be going along, too, since we are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise", once we've asked Christ to be our Lord and Savior[II Corinthians 1:22]--...

Christie, I know you have the Rapture settled in your heart, But I want you to look at your statement. Let me ask you a question. Who convicts the heart? I submit that when God has 144,000 Jews evangelizing along with the two witnesses and an angel, the Holy Spirit will still be here doing His job or there will be no new Christians...the so called tribulation saints.

If you are honest with the passage, just as we don't know the identity of the young man running away in the garden naked in Mark, we don't know who the "he" is in verse 3. The people reading the letter knows, because Paul told them. We have only a reference to a previous teaching and nothing more than guesses to his identity.

David

[roadrunner]

Christie's explanation makes sense in the context of the passage that she quoted. The whole point of Paul's message was to remind the Thessalonians of his previous teaching, and that their belief that the tribulation had come was an impossibility. It's true the Holy Spirit will work during the tribulation, but his role will be different. Now he is given to us and once given, he does not leave. This is very different from OT times when he could come or go. After the Church is gone, he will again work as he did during OT times. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit after He left (...if He didn't leave, the Comforter could not come....) and He will call the Holy Spirit back.

To the church of Philadelphia, Jesus promised:

Rev 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 

However, to the church of Laodicea, He said that they would have to overcome as He overcame. How did He overcome? I submit that He overcame through obedience unto death.

[David]

Christie's explanation makes sense in the context of the passage that she quoted. The whole point of Paul's message was to remind the Thessalonians of his previous teaching, and that their belief that the tribulation had come was an impossibility. It's true the Holy Spirit will work during the tribulation, but his role will be different. Now he is given to us and once given, he does not leave. This is very different from OT times when he could come or go. After the Church is gone, he will again work as he did during OT times. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit after He left (...if He didn't leave, the Comforter could not come....) and He will call the Holy Spirit back.

To the church of Philadelphia, Jesus promised:

Rev 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 

However, to the church of Laodicea, He said that they would have to overcome as He overcame. How did He overcome? I submit that He overcame through obedience unto death.

I haven't read where the Work of the Holy Spirit changes. Please enlighten me.

As to the rest. Who defines how a believer, during the Beginning of Sorrows and the Great Tribulation, is kept from the wrath to come? Remember there are two types of wrath during this time. Satan's and God's. Believers will not suffer from God's wrath, that is a promise, however, it is a historical truth that God has, does, and probably will continue to allow His church to suffer from Satan's wrath. It is written as such in Revelation when the dragon goes after those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If we teach the church that it will be raptured out at the beginning of Satan's wrath, or God's wrath, we do a great disservice to the church. Jesus prayer in John 17:15 "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." They will be as virgins without oil when the call of the bridegroom comes. (Matt 25:1-13)They will not be spiritually prepared for the long night of the last seven years of history. We are encouraged to endure to the end. I submit that the end is the last day. That last day happens in the days following the tribulation. According to Jesus, that is. Matthew 24:13.

Be ready for the tribulation, not the rapture. Carry oil!

David

[roadrunner]

Please explain to me how we should 'comfort one another' with the thought that we have to endure the tribulation.

[facedown]

Be ready for the tribulation, not the rapture. Carry oil!

Yeah, be ready for torture. I suggest you start practicing in the basement. Do stuff like waterboarding or start developing a tolerance to electric shocks.
Check out how the pulling of nails feels like. We gotta do everything to be prepared.

[David]

Please explain to me how we should 'comfort one another' with the thought that we have to endure the tribulation.

We comfort one another because we have not missed Jesus Christ's second coming. Read your Bible.

Then read Fox's Book of Martyrs. In the fist centuries of the church, a Christian's life was not an easy one. When was the last time one of us was lit up like a torch, still alive? I tell you that living in this country has robbed us from learning how to walk in faith. Our arrogance is blinding us to the reality of how much Satan really hates us.

The persecution of the church in this day is coming and we will be tried for our faith and  like the Christians before us, we will wonder if we have missed the second coming. But have hope. We have been told that the dead will rise first and then we who are alive and well will get changed in an instant, a twinkling of an eye and meet those who were dead in Christ in the air to be with Him ever more.

Hallelujah!!

David

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