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[Christie]

David--how did God 'save' those, even just from among the Hebrews, before Christ--didn't they have at least some kind of access to God's Holy Spirit 'way back when'?  After Christ's resurrection, didn't Christ send God's Holy Spirit to each and every born again believer who became a member of His Body, His Bride the Church, to 'seal' them forever--and, didn't the Holy Spirit then remain within each Christian permanently, unlike the Holy Spirit did not do with those who'd believed in God prior to Christ's birth, life, death and resurrection?[I fully believe that, YES, it was that way, and still is for born again believers in Christ, i.e. Christians]  Wasn't God's Holy Spirit sent by Christ to His Church, to seal it's members to God forever, which was different than the way God did things with believers prior to Christ's resurrection? [I believe the answer to that is, Yes]

So, after all of the Body of Christ has been removed from the earth, along with God's Holy Spirit, who had sealed each believer forever in Christ--won't God, the Father, who will be returning to finish up the 'unfinished business' with His 'people Israel', or the Jewish people, during the 70th week of Daniel, then be focusing also on dealing with each individual on earth, including those among His chosen people, in the same way He always did prior to Christ's life, death and resurrection--by indwelling people only at certain times in order to empower them to accomplish His will on this earth--the same as He did with all people who believed in Him prior to Christ's resurrection? [I believe the answer to that is, Yes]

When Christ tells those who are members of the ill-fated "Church at Laodicia", in Rev. chapter 7, to "buy of me", in order to have the righteousness of God with which to hide their 'nakedness', as well as He tells them to use 'eye salve', so that they might finally be able to 'see'--so, as I am understanding that, it will be for them as it was for those who lived prior to the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ--God's Holy Spirit will not be sealing them, in the way that was done for those who were saved by faith in Christ prior to the Rapture of the Church--

--God can preserve them, however, so that they might have eternal life once their life on earth is finished, and they are finally in heaven with the Lord--the members of the Body of Christ are not those who lived prior to Christ, nor will they be those who will remain here once the Body of Christ/the Church is removed by Christ from the earth--Christians are a separate group, wed to Christ as His Bride--all other people, even though they will have eternal life due to their faith in God, [such as Abraham, et.al.], they are not among the body of believers known as the "Bride of Christ"--how God actually manages all of that I still haven't a genuine clue --yet!!--I just believe that, for Him to handle it, "...it's as easy--as rollin' off a log...!" --

--and, to try and help prevent anyone from scoffing at the idea that, somehow, for some reason, all Christians, therefore, seem to be treated so much better, due to God sealing them with His Holy Spirit--so that, all Christians have it far easier than the rest of humanity, so therefore are somehow "more special" to God and Christ--I think not, due to what it says in the book of Revelation, in chapter 7--

--it speaks of what God is going to do to reward all those who remained faithful to Him and to His Son, Jesus Christ, all during the terrible, horrible tribulation period, during which not only will they need to endure the wrath poured out by Almighty God, they will also need to endure what anti-Christ will be trying to do to them--God is going to reward them more than handsomely for their remaining true to His Son, Jesus, in the face of such tremendous hardship, danger, and the very real possibly of meeting a gruesome death at the hands of fiends who will be here on earth, such as anti-Christ, and his people--

--what is said in Rev. chapter 7, verses 9 through 17, is why I believe what I just said about this.  They will suffer much, but God will even dry their tears Himself[vs.17], once they are safely with Him in heaven.

I take the mention of the 'great tribulation', within that chapter of Rev., as being just that--the great and terrible 'Day of the Lord'/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Daniel's 70th week--a really, really 'bad hair day', for one and all, who will still be here on earth to be the recipients of God's wrath during that 7 years of time, prior to Christ's Second Coming.

I won't argue over this subject, though--but, reasonable discussion is always welcome.

[David]

Prior to Christ's sacrifice, faithful obedience to the law was counted to people as righteousness. The Holy Spirit, being God was present. However, just as Jesus had a job to do in his ministry on the earth, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit in a new job that will last until the last day and the very last person receives Jesus as Savior. So you and I agree as to when the Holy Spirit stops this work. We just don't agree that the rapture happens on the last day after the tribulation and after the dead in Christ raise.

It still comes down to preparation. Are you prepared to be raptured out prior to the the tribulations dark night or are you prepared to endure to the last day with the oil needed to see through the night.

As far as Abraham not being asleep in Christ, I don't see your point. Abraham was promised that salvation would come from his descendant. He believe in this yet unnamed savior. It was counted to him as righteousness. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:26-29 So technically we join Abraham...he doesn't join us.

I also don't understand when you state "I take the mention of the 'great tribulation', within that chapter of Rev., as being just that--the great and terrible 'Day of the Lord'/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Daniel's 70th week--a really, really 'bad hair day', for one and all, who will still be here on earth to be the recipients of God's wrath during that 7 years of time, prior to Christ's Second Coming."

Are you saying that all who remain here during the tribulation will suffer God's wrath? Historically, in the Bible, evil is removed and the good stays. Too many references to cover this point. One of the first would be in Exodus. One exception might be the last day. where the parable of the wheat and tears has them growing together until the day of harvest where the wheat are taken to their place and the tears are burned. The harvest, singular, of the earth.

David

[Christie]

Yes, I guess I am saying that all who have remained here, once the Church is gone to be with Christ, will experience the wrath of God in the form of all that He brings on the earth during that time--the Church was not appointed to experience God's wrath, not the rest of humanity--but, so what, [in a way]?---God still loves them, Christ still died for them--they can still find salvation through trusting in Christ even during that period of time--perhaps one reason they might still be here is due to their refusing to trust in Christ, and perhaps the things going on at that time, might help them to see the error of their ways, and finally agree to trust in Him at last.

I do not understand how you view things, though, concerning God's Holy Spirit--but, I don't honestly care, since I've seen too many of these discussions get absolutely nowhere--I understand it the way I do, and don't understand things the way you do--are you trying to insinuate that because I don't understand this the way you do, that I am not a Christian, or one just in name only?  If so--how dare you--and, bye-bye.

[David]

Yes, I guess I am saying that all who have remained here, once the Church is gone to be with Christ, will experience the wrath of God in the form of all that He brings on the earth during that time--the Church was not appointed to experience God's wrath, not the rest of humanity--but, so what, [in a way]?---God still loves them, Christ still died for them--they can still find salvation through trusting in Christ even during that period of time--perhaps one reason they might still be here is due to their refusing to trust in Christ, and perhaps the things going on at that time, might help them to see the error of their ways, and finally agree to trust in Him at last.

This is a matter of hoping for the best but being prepared for the worst. Don't hope for the best and only prepare for the best. This is the message of the parable of the Virgins. Being protected, even in the midst of the fire is the message of the Fiery Furnace, the Lion's Den, the Exodus. I believe that man is guilty of misleading people to believe that the church won't experience hardship...that goes against the very words of Jesus when He warns us we will experience trouble because of His name. But in John 16:33 He states, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

I do not understand how you view things, though, concerning God's Holy Spirit--but, I don't honestly care, since I've seen too many of these discussions get absolutely nowhere--I understand it the way I do, and don't understand things the way you do--are you trying to insinuate that because I don't understand this the way you do, that I am not a Christian, or one just in name only?  If so--how dare you--and, bye-bye.

Hey, we're having a discussion here. Not saying you are not a Christian and really do believe you really do care about things concerning scripture.

Here's the job of the Holy Spirit...

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." John 16:7-11

I see clearly from this passage that the Holy Spirit, called the Comforter here in the KJV, has a job to do here because Jesus is going to the Father and we need the Holy Spirit to help us in our ministries. So if Jesus returns, there's still three more criteria holding the HS to do His job here. As long as there is sin He stays and does His Job. Sinners are here to the end. Satan has been judged but his sentence not carried out yet. That is done once Satan, finally no longer prince of this world, is cast into the Lake of Fire.

That's why I believe that unidentified "he" is not the Holy Spirit. An angel perhaps, but not the Holy Spirit.

David

[roadrunner]

We comfort one another because we have not missed Jesus Christ's second coming. Read your Bible.

Really, David, that is unnecessary and rude. I do read my Bible, and just because you have a different view of things doesn't give you a right to be so uppity.
Unless you wish for me to say the same to you, then I guess it is ok.

Your argument doesn't hold water. Missed the second coming? "All eyes shall see Him" so how will anyone miss it? Then you suggest that Christians will be protected through the tribulation but give as an example how they were killed in the Reformation (Book of Martyrs). The evil are removed and the good are saved? Are you saying these martyrs were evil since they were not protected? Are you saying that Christians during the tribulation will be protected by being burned at the stake? Why is it, that Revelation only speaks of the the 144,000 as being protected, and those from the tribes of Israel?

Christie is right about the work of the Holy Spirit, and how His work  changes, and how the church of Laodicea gives picture of that. It's true that the Holy Spirit still has a job to do, but His relationship with Christians now  is different than it was previously, and as it will be in the future. Also, the virgins and their oil is not about being prepared in terms of earthly provisions. Oil in the Bible is symbolic of the Holy Spirit, therefore the virgins with the oil had the Holy Spirit, those without did not.

One, and only one, harvest? In that case we've all missed it, because Jesus is the firstfruits, the first harvest, and if there's only one, then what are we waiting for? The harvest is therefore over and done with. If, however, there is a harvest at the end of Revelation, then that makes two harvests. But according to the feasts of Israel, which are anticipatory, there are actually three harvests. Trying to join them all together into one is impossible as the days of the feasts are spread over months.

[David]

Your argument doesn't hold water. Missed the second coming? "All eyes shall see Him" so how will anyone miss it?

RR, read your Bible. That passage, in context, is about a group of people being troubled that the second coming had already come.

Then you suggest that Christians will be protected through the tribulation but give as an example how they were killed in the Reformation (Book of Martyrs). The evil are removed and the good are saved? Are you saying these martyrs were evil since they were not protected? Are you saying that Christians during the tribulation will be protected by being burned at the stake? Why is it, that Revelation only speaks of the the 144,000 as being protected, and those from the tribes of Israel?

Reread what I wrote. There are two wraths. One from Satan and one from God. We will suffer at the hands of Satan, as Christians, and we will NOT suffer at the hands of God.

Christie is right about the work of the Holy Spirit, and how His work  changes

I want to read it in my Bible. Provide references please.

Also, the virgins and their oil is not about being prepared in terms of earthly provisions. Oil in the Bible is symbolic of the Holy Spirit, therefore the virgins with the oil had the Holy Spirit, those without did not.

The oil is symbolic of faith in this regard. That is why it cannot be shared. The Virgins with oil didn't need the burden to constantly drag those without faith through the dark times ahead.

One, and only one, harvest? In that case we've all missed it, because Jesus is the firstfruits, the first harvest, and if there's only one, then what are we waiting for? The harvest is therefore over and done with. If, however, there is a harvest at the end of Revelation, then that makes two harvests. But according to the feasts of Israel, which are anticipatory, there are actually three harvests. Trying to join them all together into one is impossible as the days of the feasts are spread over months.

In Revelation the earth is harvested.

David

[roadrunner]

David, read YOUR Bible. And next time answer the question I posed...how could they possibly be afraid they had missed the second coming (after the tribulation) if at that time "all eyes shall see Him"? Are you suggesting that they didn't have eyes and missed it? And how could they have missed it, if after He comes again, He sets up His kingdom on earth, and they had no illusions that they were dwelling in Jesus' kingdom?

The context of that passage only makes sense if one considers that they thought they had missed Jesus' coming, and they were at that point in the tribulation, which means they were expecting Jesus to return before the tribulation began. This is what Paul sought to reassure them of, despite the false teaching they had received. The reason you don't want to accept that is because you insist that you KNOW that Jesus isn't coming for the church before the end of the tribulation. That makes your position part of the false teaching that Paul was refuting. 

Two wraths. Ok. But you seem to suggest that you will be fine going through the tribulation because God is going to protect you. What makes you think that you will be more protected than the martyrs of the Reformation? God only promises to protect the 144,000....

Rev 7:3,4   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

As for the work of the Holy Spirit....the Holy Spirit was working all through the ages, up until Jesus came, and during the time that He was walking on the earth. So why did Jesus have to leave in order to send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter? He said that if He didn't leave, the Comforter could not come. Paul understood the difference from the OT times, and was amazed at it. The references aren't in specific verses, but in the whole context of the NT, especially after the day of Pentecost in Acts. All through the NT the inference is there, that is, until you get to Revelation. Then it changes, otherwise why seal the 144,000? We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, so why do they require a new sealing?

In Revelation the earth is harvested, true. But there are three harvests. The one at the end of Revelation is the last one. So when are the other two?

[Winter]

I am going to tell you guys why I never, except for the rare interjection, join in on "Rapture" debates.

NUMBER ONE: Of all the issues that divide Christians with the probability of going from debating to fighting within seconds, making the observer either laugh or relieved they never became a christian, the Rapture ranks up there with Bible translations.

NUMBER TWO:  Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, No-Trib, or whatever in between....
Where a person ends up in eternity is more important than some temporary state.

[David]

Two wraths. Ok. But you seem to suggest that you will be fine going through the tribulation because God is going to protect you. What makes you think that you will be more protected than the martyrs of the Reformation? God only promises to protect the 144,000....

He's already says we are not appointed to His wrath. We won't suffer, as Christians, at the hands of God. We will suffer, as did martyrs before us, at the hands of Satan.

The 144,000 are special because of their mention in the prophecy, however, and I don't need remind you, that just like every other Christian before them, will have to receive Jesus Christ as their Savior of their own free will. Once the last one has done so, the events may proceed.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

It comes down to the "seal." Here are some references that put this into perspective for me and illustrate my point.

"Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." 2 Cor 1:21-22

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

As for the work of the Holy Spirit....the Holy Spirit was working all through the ages, up until Jesus came, and during the time that He was walking on the earth. So why did Jesus have to leave in order to send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter? He said that if He didn't leave, the Comforter could not come. Paul understood the difference from the OT times, and was amazed at it. The references aren't in specific verses, but in the whole context of the NT, especially after the day of Pentecost in Acts. All through the NT the inference is there, that is, until you get to Revelation. Then it changes, otherwise why seal the 144,000? We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, so why do they require a new sealing?

These are Jews being sealed. Christian Jews. From the 12 tribes no less. That is significant to me. Now I know that there are Jews becoming Christians all the time and I would imagine that it would be a significant number, however these Jews have special qualities, they've made lifestyle choices. They've been called for this purpose. Yet, as I pointed out above, they need to personally commit themselves to Christ just as you and I, Paul, Peter, John and every Christian since. I also don't believe they are sealed at once. I believe these men have been sealed in process as they have grown and learned about the Lord. We are waiting for the final men to be sealed. 

In Revelation the earth is harvested, true. But there are three harvests. The one at the end of Revelation is the last one. So when are the other two?

Harvests or Resurrections?

David

[David]

I am going to tell you guys why I never, except for the rare interjection, join in on "Rapture" debates.

NUMBER ONE: Of all the issues that divide Christians with the probability of going from debating to fighting within seconds, making the observer either laugh or relieved they never became a christian, the Rapture ranks up there with Bible translations.

NUMBER TWO:  Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, No-Trib, or whatever in between....
Where a person ends up in eternity is more important than some temporary state.

I agree with you. However, isn't it also important that a believer not just believe a man but believe God? Not many people out there saying to be prepared to endure to the end...only to the rapture. I'm not challenging if one is a Christian...but are you sure of how far into the future you need be prepared for? Where I don't ever desire to be put in a situation where I'm being told to renounce my faith or watch members of my family be tortured and killed right before my eyes.

David

[Bluehorse]

I'm a kook...so be it. But, here's my conception of the 144,000 (symbollically). They are not anything being advocated of them. I don't think they are engendered. I think they are Enochian, physical, raptured already, and are what we'd confuse with angels. They are sealed already prototypically.  But, they are nevertheless men, physical descendants of Adam. They were removed prior to the flood...that they should not see death, as the Bible puts it, TAKEN, the very root of the idea of "rapture" and redemptively congruent.
This I think has to do with the order of Melchesedek and they are not Levitical as Jesus was not, being "AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHESEDEK"... in time.
 How can an angel be a "fellow servant"? only if he is what some will become after some metamorphosis or transformation we do not conceptualize  from a physical viewpoint.
On earth, the sun, the moon and the stars were of course Jacob's family progenitors of all Israel. The sun, moon, and stars will be darkened etc etc.
fallen and scattered etc. That happened in 70AD at the end of the last age.
Who are these angels in the Revelation? They are possibly Sons of Enoch and  are from a "far country". They already existed at the time of Christ on earth. IMO they are the pre-flood redeemed and are the same as the genetic stock of Jacob. One tradtion of the Pilar of Enoch is that the 144,000 were represented as the white stones used to cover the pyramid in a white mantle long before Jacob became a living stone with cellestial overtones.
Most of us schmucks are from the other "rivers" of humanity, the Gihon, Pishon, and so on. We are gentiles, ie "the nations".
IMO the "rapture" is a "healing" at a genetic level. "Death will be swallowed up" sort of thing. It is only by the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit that this can take place. Otherwise we must go through the gate of death and remain as spirits who return to God to trans-engender at a later time.
The ultimate state is one of having a glorified body, once again being "covered" by a spiritual mantle.
 I think Christ took His Bride already, figuratively from the "Bosom of Abraham". Those currently dwelling in the "city of God" are the redeemed of the earth. Somehow I think we lost the thread of our divine history in some very substantive ways.
Genetics has some real bearing on all this but how I can't say. It's fun to think about though. I can't help but connect genetics and the rapture and some real connection between healing and glorification by whatever degree.
There must be some climax to all of this which transcends doctrinal positions and traditions. I do believe though that at some point there will be those who are "healed" completely in the visible presence of those who are not.  It's my belief that is what the rapture is, redemptive healing but that context is removed from it. It is associated with no more pain or tears.
I believe that after the "rapture" the nations will be healed in their turn. Sin and death will eventually be no more. And that is the blessed hope. I do not think that the "ages" can be compressed into a simple scenario. The true Jerusalem is a cosmic redemption.

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