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[David]

Jewel, I would say exactly what I am saying now. Why are you questioning me when I'm the one saying to stay away from these movements? David is the one supporting them, why don't you ask him what he would say since he seems to be so supportive of their agenda now? And what would you say since you seem to be so supportive of David?

You can't claim to hold the view that religion is evil, so stay away from it, and then be so supportive of it's agenda.

RR means I support the "agenda" because I'm conservative. That I believe people have the right of freedom to choose. Some how RR believes that we are too stupid to be self governed and need the nanny state to make decisions for us because man is greedy, selfish, self-centered and power-hungry. And since RR also believes that Christians shouldn't be in office because we would be influenced in our governing decisions by leaders in the church, or even worse, the Bible, all we have left to govern us are people who have not the conviction to lead a perfect life and are free to pursue being greedy, selfish, self-centered and power-hungry. Exactly what we find in Washington today. So that's why we are seeing double dip inflation, a decrease in the money supply (depression) and we hear things that were once called bad being called good.

David

[Jewel]

Let me rephrase for RR...if Obama showed up one day and asked everyone to take  a micro-chip under the skin so they could 'protect' all of the citizens, even the less fortunate...would you do it?

Oh...David already said what he'd do about a mark, he said he'd say no.  You must have missed it.

[roadrunner]

Jewel, you completely missed what I was saying. Neither Obama (as if that would make any difference to me) or any other political figure is going to ask anyone to take a mark. It comes from the religious leader. Also the mark has nothing to do with 'protecting all the citizens, even the less fortunate', it has to do with the ability to buy and sell.

David has said he would say no. But in all his posts throughout this site, he says yes to the agenda of the very people who are working towards enforcing religion on people, to the people who even now are saying that they want to establish 'Christian' states, 'Christian' military, 'Christian' education on the masses, take over government, etc. So how does one say yes to all their agenda, then say no to their icon of their agenda? After all that, you've already said yes. So if David wants to proclaim that he would say no, then he needs to take a hard look at all his yeses, as he is looking in the wrong place for the mark of the beast to be presented. It's a common tool....misdirection. As long as they can keep people looking to the 'evil' government as the culprit, then they can do what they want and nobody is even paying attention.

[Jewel]

I didn't miss what you were saying.  You put up a hypothetical about taking the mark of the beast.  So did I.  You mentioned Palin as if you thought that might make a difference, so I mentioned Obama. If it doesn't make a difference to you, why would it make a difference to me?

So what if the mark of the beast turns out to be political?  I definitely know of people who put great faith in the government as the giver of all good, as if it's the savior.  You would think to hear some people speak that government said ' let there be light.'  It's trusting in men and works, which is the sum of religion. 

Yeah, misdirection.  It IS a common tool.

But, I think this discussion is now beating a dead horse.    So continue if you want, but I think Bluehorse's idea may be a little closer to the mark (Ha!  Pardon the pun)  than the old UPC idea.

[David]

The way the different religions and denominations are being sought out to come together is an indication of what is to come. Remember, it's the woman that rides the beast. There is going to be an increased relationship between religion and government!

David

[roadrunner]

That's true, David, and all one has to do is watch the republicans join with the religious right to see that happening. They are now inseparable, which is why I don't support them. They don't believe in the separation of church and state, yet claim to believe in the constitution. Watch what has happened in Hawaii recently with the governor rejecting legislation that was passed by their duly elected representatives....no more democracy there, it's religion and state united with a dictator of a governor who is promoting the religious right agenda.

[Bluehorse]

If one does not compare the right thing to the right thing then one will compare it to the wrong thing out of necessity. That doesn't mean one is stupid or deluded, or just misinformed. And after enough false starts and dead ends, the damage has been done.
It doesn't even matter how studious, how ethical, or how sincere one is. One can be sincerely wrong. The idea has become fixated and continues to do its damage, mislead others, and expand the process, eventually becoming that ubiquitous and troublesome thing referred to as a false doctrine, which is to believe something never intended except for the most expedient reasons.
Scripture pretty much tells us what the mark of the beast is : it's revealed in the discussions Jesus has with Peter, unequivocally. So is the rapture revealed in the conversion of Paul.
It is the essential which has been replaced with the nominal, poor theology, and political zionism. That said, I have my own views on what these things in the end times mean and also why science plays a huge part in both issues. But, that's not essential: it's only speculative. But, if I substitute that for the essential, then I'm already on the path to being wrong because I've lost context. Most of these speculations do just that and one has to be wise enough to know that is the case.
There are three elements to the mark of the beast...body, soul, and spirit. There are the three elements to the rapture. This is the the thing which must be pondered: which do we live out of.

[Jewel]

There are three elements to the mark of the beast...body, soul, and spirit.


I don't know the answer to all of this, but I really think that's where we miss it. Thanks, Bluehorse.

[roadrunner]

Bluehorse, I understand what you are saying, that prophecy needs to be understood on a deeper level. However, one MUST notice how prophecy was fulfilled during the time of Christ...it gets fulfilled on more levels than we can imagine. To claim that a literal fulfillment is more unscriptural than a symbolic one is wrong. Prophecy fulfillment fulfills all the elements. Did Jesus ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, or was that prophecy in the OT just a symbol of His humility? Was it not both? Was Judas really paid 30 pieces of silver, as the OT prophecied, or was that just symbolic? Was Jesus really born in Bethlehem, or was that just a symbol of His humble birth?

If you want to say what your speculations are, then I would be willing to deal with them, but to just blast what I've been saying as 'nominal, poor theology, and political zionism' and to say that I've substituted that for the essential is to just toss out vague criticisms that don't mean much. Be careful that it is not you who have lost context, as I don't really see your context as being as meaningful as you claim. You don't seem to want to back up your statements with any scriptural references other than generalizations.

So what is it that you really are claiming to be so much more scriptural than what I've offered?

[Bluehorse]

You see the mark of the beast everyday and don't recognize it because it is hidden in plain sight. In Masonry it is expressed this way: N/Saturn/+. But, it appears as the eye over the pyramid on the "seal". The constuction is geometric, a star, and at it's centre is the Iris of the eye. The hidden star is a referrence to the wages of Solomon, or 666 talents of gold.
I'll just kept this as simple as I can, for brevity.
Now, what is it about the "iris" ... it's a "black hole", a terminology which is unfortunate. The eye appears over the pyramid as a "black sun". It is a referance to the "lost cannon" of numbers...which have their greatest expression in the metrics of the Great Pyramid and "the archetect".
The "black hole" is the enterance to the pyramid in this sense...the plennum is the King's Coffer and it expresses it's energetic and visionary manifestation over the pyramid itself, just as the Ark did.
There are many proofs that this is so. The two pillars of Masonry are Solomon's porch, through which one passes to the hidden coffer of the Ark and it's "glory cloud". It's almost a no brainer. The pyramid under the "black sun" or star of Saturn conceals the coffer, hidden behind a tripple veil.
If you do the math which is based on the cannon itself the "coffer" represents the "black hole" at the centre of the earth. It represents the plennum, or the "prima materia" of alchemy which Einstein supposedly replaced with E=mc2.
So, what does all this have to do with the mark of the beast? and how is that the  secret of the rapture  as an "event horizon".

[Bluehorse]

The rapture is an "event horizon" ... a "What", not just a "when". How does it save flesh from destruction? quantitatively. It can only be compared to the mark of the beast, not as a sigil but as a real event. In other words, what resurrects and how is it sealed. Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit is a deposit (amusing in one sense)...a "fire" in another. But what is divine fire...it is the pattern. Then the whole language comes into view.
There is another language of great interest ... it's the language of "free energy" and the "whatsoever...". Its mirror image language. There is one pattern in Christ and there is another pattern in the beast. You could say that simply the beast is in the mirror but the inner man is patterned after Christ, the second Adam. This all gets confused when people attempt to objectify the "mark". Our "mark" is the high calling in Christ Jesus sealed by the pattern.
No matter how I'd try to express this someone would take umbrage with it. The pattern in the beast is a mirror image of two covenants, the inner and the outer man, one physical and the other spiritual. Jesus is the one true pattern of the new man. You may not like how I've attempted to express this but I can't help that. But maybe that will help you understand where I was coming from without being tedious.
The not so amusing thing is that "mammon" is a mirror image of righteousness under the wrong covenant. The language of "salvation" and the language of money are identical. Once you get that it is mindaltering.
That's how the man in the mirror is controlled.

[roadrunner]

From your statements, I would have to agree with you on a number of points, and the first would be that 'mammon' is a mirror image of righteousness under the wrong covenant, that the language of money and the language of salvation are, perhaps not exactly identical, but certainly similar. I have been attempting to associate the money-changers with the temple from ancient times, and that's one of the reasons that they have such a strong alliance. The priests have long been the ones controlling the world's money. Gold and silver have been the means of commerce from the beginning, and gold and silver are especially esteemed by religion, as the pure elements.

It is very interesting that the masons use the symbology of the Temple of Solomon, only in reverse. Instead of facing west, as Solomon's temple did, theirs faces east. In essence, it is the counter-temple, the mirror image of what the Temple stood for. So perhaps they are looking for that 'black hole' rather the a 'white door', as it were, looking for the opposite path to the same end. So I would agree with you that the pattern of the beast is a mirror image of the pattern of Christ. I think they are attempting to deal with the inner man also, the spiritual man, so I don't know that I would say it's a dichotomy between  the inner and the outer man. Their whole attempt at 'turning the base elements into gold' also includes the spiritual man, as the whole process doesn't work unless the whole of man is involved in the process, including the spiritual man. That's why so many of them failed, but one must realize that some actually succeeded.

The question of Solomon is still unresolved for me, as I realize that he is involved in this precisely because of the reference to the 666 talents of gold. But then, we go back to the reference of gold as a pure element, as the means of commerce of the priest class, so back to the involvement of religion.

IMO, much of the discussion about the pyramid, the 'black sun' and the lost cannon of numbers, as well as the language of free energy, the hidden coffer, and triple veil, etc. has to do with the attempt to rebuild the Tower of Babel, and all that that entailed, which is much more than most people assign to it. It has to do with reclaiming the golden age and all the knowledge that was lost from that time, but even more, it is about gaining control over the processes of nature, of the universe, itself. By controlling the most basic of the building blocks of our existence, they can control the future, they can control human aging (and therefore death...they can live forever), they can change the path of humanity....man can be equal with God, in their minds. This all goes back to the beginning, to what was lost in the garden of Eden, and an attempt to regain that which was lost. Jesus has shown a path to reclaiming that, and the beast has a different path to the same end. You are right, the one is a mirror image of the other. The beast and false prophet are already claiming that mankind can take a quantum leap forward in his evolution, a leap to a higher man. Isn't that what Jesus has promised? They are different paths to the same end. (I'm not speaking of the merits of the claims, only that the claims are identical.)

With that said, though, I still believe that there will be a sign in which members can identify one another as they have made use of this practice through the ages. The fact that the pattern of Jesus and the pattern of the beast are direct corollaries of one another, mirror images of their process and ends, doesn't preclude the use of icons. They can both be true. But even if there is no outward mark, what I've been trying to argue is the participation in the organization and pattern of the beast is what is to be avoided, as the time to say no is now, not at some future time when an outward mark is attempted to identify those already in the system, or at some future time when one's back is up against the wall. The pattern of the beast with the marriage of commerce and religion is what is being told in Revelation....those who take the mark can neither buy nor sell, and this is imposed by the false prophet in the name of the beast.

[Bluehorse]

That's very well written RR. Of course, there was no person called Sol-Amon. Sol-Amon was just the name of the system. It's star is Saturn and always was, as Stephen witnesses before his stoning.
None of this is new ... the real Schuliman ( or some varient)  fell into idolatry and the modern legacy is the temple obsession and the darling of zionists of all kinds. It's where one picks up the thread that determins how the materials are philosphized upon. It's been the bane of academia eversince Schuliman and the scribes and pharisees played their part. 
The Medaeval layer is only one layer. There is no way out of the mess. If we hold the Bible to be true, and I do, then we have all the elements before us. Otherwise, there is no revelation.
The old elements were burned up as Peter says. That's my whole point. The only way out of the mess is to identify the "elements" and go through them one by one. Modern dispensationalism crashes.
The fundamental thing which emerges from doing this is a different definition of the "rapture". Most of modern religion crashes.

......rant

The only comparable thing would be if the web crashed. If God were to do that in some way, Babylon would never rise again. ( my little joke to myself ). Actually, it reminds me of Samson pulling the whole thing down on his own head. or, comparably a nut like Silverstein saying "pull it". There's a whole group of these sub jackasses who need to be rounded up and hung on their own gallows. My pet name for Silverstein is Haman.

[David]

That's true, David, and all one has to do is watch the republicans join with the religious right to see that happening. They are now inseparable, which is why I don't support them. They don't believe in the separation of church and state, yet claim to believe in the constitution. Watch what has happened in Hawaii recently with the governor rejecting legislation that was passed by their duly elected representatives....no more democracy there, it's religion and state united with a dictator of a governor who is promoting the religious right agenda.

And Democrats with the non-Christian religions and the non-religious. The goals of both are the same only the groups being played are different.

David

[David]

The only comparable thing would be if the web crashed. If God were to do that in some way, Babylon would never rise again. ( my little joke to myself ). Actually, it reminds me of Samson pulling the whole thing down on his own head. or, comparably a nut like Silverstein saying "pull it". There's a whole group of these sub jackasses who need to be rounded up and hung on their own gallows. My pet name for Silverstein is Haman.

Very interesting idea. But as we nudge ever closer to the AC's revealing, the means by which last days prophecy is carried out becomes better defined.

David

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