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[David]

...Think about all the Christians in other countries who do not even have a KJV in their language...

You misunderstand. The KJV, IMHO, is the best English translation. If you don't speak English, hopefully there is a translation in your language that you can read from. But PTL the KJV existed so that as England and the U.S. spread their influence and language around the world, there was an accurate translation for people to learn English from and learn about God.

David

[facedown]

Do you not understand that Christians aren't to be arguing over words?

Nope, don't understand it. Cause TRUTH matters. It is not about "words" it is about doctrine.
You know that it's not just about words. It's not about wether Jesus worde brown or blue sandals. 

[Bluehorse]

"English doesn't BORROW from other languages. English follows other languages into dark alleys, beats them up for their words and goes through their pockets for loose grammer." Juptier Lovejoy

[DennisS]

...Think about all the Christians in other countries who do not even have a KJV in their language...

You misunderstand. The KJV, IMHO, is the best English translation. If you don't speak English, hopefully there is a translation in your language that you can read from. But PTL the KJV existed so that as England and the U.S. spread their influence and language around the world, there was an accurate translation for people to learn English from and learn about God.

David

Well put.  Thanks.  I think I do remember you saying "English translation".  Sorry about that.

[DennisS]

Do you not understand that Christians aren't to be arguing over words?

Nope, don't understand it. Cause TRUTH matters. It is not about "words" it is about doctrine.
You know that it's not just about words. It's not about wether Jesus worde brown or blue sandals. 

It's not about doctrine - it's about practice, as in orthopraxy.

Truth does indeed matter.  Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!  (Mt 23:23-24).

Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.” (Lk 10:25-28).

Jesus said it is about doing what is right - not just knowing what is right (and not having it move you to action).  Does every word in every book in the Bible have to meet your litmus test before you will actually live out your faith?  Do you even have to read the Bible to be a Christian?  Is it by their words that you will know someone is a Christian?

[DennisS]

....
Whatever you do obey what you read from whatever version the Holy Spirit convicts you to read.

David

Amen to what you wrote in the post - and a loud AMEN to this line.

I do believe that care and prayer are important in choosing a study Bible - and that it is appropriate to read the views of others (pro and con) when making such a choice.  (Though not get caught up in those who only want to destroy all other translations but the one they hold.  I'm not sure that the NIV is in the majority of churches, as I've not seen this in the congregations I've visited in the two states and several cities I've lived.

[DennisS]

....It's not about doctrine - it's about practice, as in orthopraxy...

Don't hear what I'm not saying.  Doctrine definitely has it's place in the Church.  But let me ask this... Does the Good News of Jesus primarily spread to new believers because of the Bible version being used, a specific doctrine such as the Trinity (or even the full set of doctrines), or is the Gospel spread by Christians acting in love?

Oh, I suppose some will say, "I am telling you that you must use this translation and believe this doctrine if you are truly a Christian - I only tell you this out of love for you."  No, that is not love.  It is the wolf of fear-based teaching in the clothing of a peaceful lamb following the Shepherd.

Some might make the argument that right belief (orthodoxy) is the primary arm of faith.  And this is true.  But some want to stretch that right belief to being primarily about a translation of holy writ, rather than faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.  What you believe about a specific translation of scripture is not what saves you.

When you do become convinced that Jesus is both Lord and Savior, then your actions will speak louder than words.  Is repentance now your trustworthy companion?  Is your life changed from the inside?

If orthodoxy is the primary arm of faith, then orthopraxy (right practice/living) is the legs upon which faith moves, and upon which faith is supported.  It's amazing how serving in a mission field, even for a short time, can have such a profound impact upon a person - such that they are forever changed (less worried about words - sometimes not being able to communicate well across language barriers - and becoming more caring and compassionate in Christian love).

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James 2:14-17).

[facedown]

Jesus said it is about doing what is right - not just knowing what is right (and not having it move you to action).  Does every word in every book in the Bible have to meet your litmus test before you will actually live out your faith?  Do you even have to read the Bible to be a Christian?  Is it by their words that you will know someone is a Christian?

What does this stuff have to do with the topic?
If truth and "words" don't matter then you can as well get a mormon bible and run with it, right?
Then the only thing which matters is that you're a nice christian and lead old grannies across the street. 

No, the every serious christian the truth is important and every single word matters. I don't want a bible which has
deliberately been manipulated and watered down. Just watch the video. It is amazing how much meaning and how many details
have been hid from the NIV readers in just this 1 verse!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXVrX1j9irs (External Embedding Disabled)

[DennisS]

I'll say it again... I am unable to view videos on my computer.  Do you understand that I won't be watching the video?

Jesus said to let the little ones come to him.  Do you think this is only after they have learned to read and have the right doctrine?

If you tell someone (you didn't previously know) about Christ when you are at a park, and you didn't have a Bible with you, but you shared what you could remember - even if it was a paraphrase - and they decided to trust you, and to trust Jesus... but they are killed on the way home - are they any less saved because they haven't studied the Bible and the Doctrines of the faith?  Or is simple belief sufficient?  What all is requried

Is simple trusting faith sufficient - or does a person have to have read the KJV in order to be saved?

What is required for salvation?  Is adding to the requirements something that Jesus would appreciate?  Do you see that I am asking you to consider the absolute basics?

I'm not opposed to very serious Christians holding the Truth as high as possible.  I'm not opposed to anyone desiring to study the KJV, or even being so specific as studying in a congregation that only uses/accepts the 1611 KJV.  That's fine and good.  But pissing on other believers (especially new believers) because they don't see your use of the KJV as "essential" in matters of faith... well, I have a problem with that.  It is not holding up the Word of God - it is being offensive to require a specific translation upon others - which is essentially adding to the requirements (if that were indeed possible).

Answer the question:  Is simple trusting faith in Jesus - sufficient for salvation?

[DennisS]

Perhaps you can post the verse from the NIV and the KJV?  Rather than continuing to refer to a video, refer to the verse in question - that would be helpful.

[facedown]

I'll say it again... I am unable to view videos on my computer.  Do you understand that I won't be watching the video?

What kind of strange computer do you have? Can you at least listen to audio files? He who has ears, let him hear! 

http://www.zshare.net/audio/787440967c1dc531/

[DennisS]

I got 8 seconds of the 10 minutes to download.  "and then in chapter 17" (voice ends - refering to John 17)

Can you post the scripture reference or not?

Can you actually answer a direct question (which I previously posted)?  If you are not going to actually dialog, then I question why you are here.

My question to you:  Is simple trusting faith in Jesus - sufficient for salvation?

[facedown]

I got 8 seconds of the 10 minutes to download.  "and then in chapter 17" (voice ends - refering to John 17)

Can you post the scripture reference or not?

Can you actually answer a direct question (which I previously posted)?  If you are not going to actually dialog, then I question why you are here.

My question to you:  Is simple trusting faith in Jesus - sufficient for salvation?

Did you not listen to it? He mentions the verse in there. Why do I have to seek the verse for you?

Joh 18:1  When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.

And what does your last question have to do with the topic? Nothing.
I guess with this kind of attitude God could also have given humanity a 2 page tract which contained all necessary
infos to get saved. This would have sufficed, too.

[DennisS]

Why was it so hard to post the verse in question?  John 18:1.  Okay.  Thanks.  Sorry you couldn't understand that I was unable to hear it.

Guess what?  I installed an update, and was able to listen to it.  Unfortunately, I listened to the first half over 24 hours ago.  I was interrupted by someone stopping by who wanted to talk.  Three hours later he left, and I needed some sleep.  I listened to the other half tonight.  I disagree significantly with what I heard.  I don't know if there was more before this, or after this.

I literal word-for-word translation of John 18:1 - These things having said Jesus went out with the disciples of him across the ravine the Kidron where there was a garden into which entered he and the disciples of him.

Jesus had indeed been praying.

I agree that "the exact words of God matter to him".  But assuming the KJV has these exact words, and only these words, and all the words of God - well, that is extremely problematic.

Gardens included trees.  Consider the beginning chapters of Genesis, where there are trees in the "garden".  These things go together.  Fruits are eaten from "gardens" in many chapters of the Bible - indicating the presence of trees, or even the predominance of trees.  Even trees that don't bear fruit were in gardens (if not the primary reason for the garden) -

The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty (Eze 31:8, KJV).

Garden? Orchard? Grove?  All essentially the same thing.

1. over the brook Kedron—a deep, dark ravine, to the northeast of Jerusalem, through which flowed this small storm brook or winter torrent, and which in summer is dried up.
where was a garden—at the foot of the Mount of Olives, “called Gethsemane; that is, olive press (Mt 26:30, 36).
Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1871). Critical and explanatory commentary. (John 18:1).

If Gethsemane means "olive press", and this is indeed where they are when Jesus is arrested (Mt. 26) it may not be much of a stretch to consider there was likely a significant Olive Grove there.

As noted, the ravine is dried up in summer, and thus they would not need a boat to cross.  Too bad he didn't do his research.

I don't have time right now to get into his use of "word", "words", and the difference he suggests between "Word" and "Jesus".  He doesn't distinguish between "logos" and "hrema" (both translated "word" in English).

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