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[facedown]

What's your take on this? If a church is 501c3 does this mean that the state
is the head of the church and can tell it what to do?

I also heard that there was a huge fundamental baptist church which was 501c3 and then wanted to get out and they came in with swat teams and bulldozed the whole church to the ground.

[David]

What's your take on this? If a church is 501c3 does this mean that the state
is the head of the church and can tell it what to do?

I also heard that there was a huge fundamental baptist church which was 501c3 and then wanted to get out and they came in with swat teams and bulldozed the whole church to the ground.

We have such a church here that went from being a 501c3  and un-incorporated. They started paying their employees as contractors, what we call 1099 employees. These employees were paying all their own taxes. I've been living like that for years. However the feds didn't like something about the arrangement. The feds returned all the tax paid by the employees and then files suite against the church...the feds re-incorporated them...and charged them with failing to pay employee taxes. The feds, of course, won and seized the churches property, valued far higher than the judgment, and auctioned it off.

Later analysis discovered what the church had done wrong. There was still a mortgage on the property under the old 501c3 corporation. Had the church board of elders bought the property from the old corporation, retiring that debt and replacing it with a mortgage not tied to the old church corporation the feds would not have had any thing. Greg Dixon, the pastor then was very outspoken and ruffled a lot of feathers. He must have ruffled the wrong ones just enough times.

His son now leads the church.

David

[Jewel]

I think incorporating is bad, even though without it there are things churches can't do, like a prelude to the mark of the beast. 

[facedown]

If a church or ministry is 501c3, then how much power does the state have over the church or ministry?
Can the state tell them what they may preach and what not?

Does this mean that that a 501c3 church or ministry cannot be trusted?
I really ask myself wether a pastor of a 501c3 church can really be spiritual cause if he was spiritual then wouldn't he see the problems which being tied to the state has?

[David]

If a church or ministry is 501c3, then how much power does the state have over the church or ministry?
Can the state tell them what they may preach and what not?

Does this mean that that a 501c3 church or ministry cannot be trusted?
I really ask myself wether a pastor of a 501c3 church can really be spiritual cause if he was spiritual then wouldn't he see the problems which being tied to the state has?

Liberal 501c3 organizations violate most of the rules like staying neutral on politics and stuff. Pastors are to refrain from endorsing or criticizing politicians from the pulpit. At least that is the general understanding.

Bad things about being incorporated. Tax deductions for contributions. The Lord loves a cheerful giver...but saving on taxes shouldn't be the source of our cheer nor the motivation to give. If we get a break on the offering, the sacrifice is lessened don't you think? Save tax on contributions to other organizations. Corporations enjoy limits on liability. When does the Bible teach us not to pay our debts? Permission to operate as a corporation by the government. Under who's authority is the church to operate? The 501c3 was created by President Johnson back in the mid 1960's. 501c3's are not-for-profit organizations and thus exempt from paying taxes. However in the case of churches and schools are exempt from paying taxes by nature of what they are. They don't need the 501c3. However, churches looked to have successful business men sit on their boards of elders and these men did what they did with their own businesses and incorporated them.

If a church starts up they falsely believe they need to incorporate. They don't. They can let the board of elders own the property and manage the finances. They can pay any employees as contractors. Churches in America can enjoy the First Amendment as long as allowed until the government becomes tyrannical and denies those rights.

David

[DennisS]

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's...  If Caesar says he doesn't want to tax the contributions to tax-exempt entities, then why would anyone pay those taxes?  If Caesar says he doesn't want to levy a tax on the property that is properly used for a purpose such as that involving Christian church buildings that aren't running businesses out of their property, why pay huge property taxes?

A "tax break" is not why we give.We give more than 10% to our church, and nearly another 10% to other non-profit charities (such as seminary education in India - which wouldn't be deductible anyway).  Yet, we don't even list our giving on our taxes, as we don't itemize.  You would have to give more than the standard deduction to even make sense to itemize.  We have three kids at home, so the standard deduction and credits are sufficient to not pay income tax.  Now, self-employment tax on the other hand - I get to pay 15.3% on my salary plus 15.3% on the value of the housing (such as if we received it as a rent-subsidy).  Self-employment tax I pay out the nose for - it's over 20% of my salary.

Most likely, if a person is contributing to a non-profit entity, that money is already being taxed at least once - often much more.  It can be taxed when a company receives it, as a sales tax.  Then it can be taxed as income to the company receiving the sales.  Then it is taxed as income to the employees, etc.

Companies that are buying raw materials to produce goods from - are not paying taxes on those purchases (rubber for tires, grain for alcohol, aluminum for cans or planes, etc).  The tax will be received on the final product, not on the raw materials.

If the activities of a congregation and preachers wouldn't be any different having tax-exempt status, than not having it - why would they want to be poor stewards of the gifts of the congregation to the mission of the church?

A non-profit does not "need" to incorporate - this is true.  On the other hand, there are reasons to seek to incorporate with non-profit status.  Our local area has begun a ministry called Helping Hands - to help those needing assistance of many types.  If we want the cattle feedlot to contribute significantly, as they give a certain percentage of their income to non-profits, then we should seek that status.  If people do want a tax-deduction then I don't see the problem with it.  Why do we cast doubt on the motives of people?  Is it just because they have money and want to be good stewards and put it towards a good and useful mission - a mission good for the county and state in this area?

We have passionate people who are registered in all types of political parties here.  Why would I go preaching for, or against, a specific candidate?  I'm to preach Christ, and him crucified.  I can preach about an issue without preaching for or against a candidate.

Face - you are in Germany, and this doesn't apply to you.  Why are you posting this crap anyway?

Churches are generally quite valid non-profits - serving the people who fall through the assistance programs of the government (and much more efficient at it).

The government says we need to fill out some paperwork regarding our finances each year. That is their requirement of us.  Give to Caesar what is Caesar's - doesn't just apply to money.  But if Caesar is, or becomes oppressive, the Church goes "underground" - and often this is when she grows the most and is most productive for the Kingdom of the Lord.

[facedown]

Liberal 501c3 organizations violate most of the rules like staying neutral on politics and stuff. Pastors are to refrain from endorsing or criticizing politicians from the pulpit. At least that is the general understanding.

This sounds bad and it also would annoy me if I was a pastor. I wouldn't want to be silenced by the government.
From what I have heard the whole 501c3 stuff is a good method to get churches under control.
Then they only have to "educate" the pastors on Romans 13 and everything is ready for marshall law. And the sheeple
people sit in church and think everything is fine. Maybe the pastors will even agree with offer vaccinations in church.

Face - you are in Germany, and this doesn't apply to you.  Why are you posting this crap anyway?

I don't see why this is crap. I simply ask myself how far a pastor who runs a 501c3 church or ministry can be seen as being very spiritual that's all. If God doesn't like churches being yoked up with the state then why do pastors still do it?

[DennisS]

.... If God doesn't like churches being yoked up with the state then why do pastors still do it?

Is this a new commandment?  Do you have any Biblical quotes regarding this?

[facedown]

Is this a new commandment?  Do you have any Biblical quotes regarding this?

How can Jesus be the head of the church when at the same time the state tells the church what it may do or say?
Sounds like a compromising situation to me. 

2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

[David]

How can Jesus be the head of the church when at the same time the state tells the church what it may do or say? Sounds like a compromising situation to me. 

Some would argue that pulpits are not the place for politics. Some believe that politics influenced by Christianity will bring about heaven on earth. I fall somewhere in between. If there is a politician behaving immorally and you pastor urges you to vote him out of office, what business is it of government to tell the pastor to censor his speech or suffer loss of the churches or his tax exempt status? Yet it is in the rules governing the  501c3. If a church agrees to and enjoy the provisions of the 501c3 then they can't complain.

Further, if a church is a 501c3 and can take advantage of its tax status, why not take advantage of it? However, if a congregation decides to never incorporate, which isn't needed to enjoy certain tax advantages because it is a church, then all the better. A church free from the entanglements of the state will be far better off in the long run, in my estimation. The church has survived most of its existence without it and flourishes not because of man's cleverness, but God's grace.

David

[DennisS]

Is this a new commandment?  Do you have any Biblical quotes regarding this?

How can Jesus be the head of the church when at the same time the state tells the church what it may do or say?
Sounds like a compromising situation to me. 

2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Why do you assume that those in government are unbelievers and are corrupt?  Do you throw them all in together, rather than discerning?

Perhaps you should check the history books.  In Geneva, in the late 1500's, the Elders of the Church were the Elders of the town.  There is still the Church of Scotland, of which approximately 46% of the population claims allegiance.  There is still the Church of England.  But of course, there was also the early church at the time of Constantine - when he made Christianity the state religion.

This is not saying that these unions are perfect, but there is nothing in the Bible to forbid this from taking place.  In some ways, communism seems to fit well with the early church as recorded in Acts 2 & 4.

If you go into areas with very strong Christians known as Mennonites, Amish, or Quakers, you quickly learn that the church and their beliefs govern what they say and do.  They don't have internet, so you will have to mail them something to let them know that God doesn't allow the affairs of the church to overrule non-church life, that they are living in sin, though you can't quote any scripture to them to tell them it is wrong to have men who have faith in Jesus to have power in the community....

[facedown]

The problem is that the government of the US is not christian.
Then being tied to them or having to obey them isn't something a church should want to do.

[DennisS]

Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why are you putting me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin used for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. 20 Then he said to them, “Whose head is this, and whose title?” 21 They answered, “The emperor’s.” Then he said to them, “Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” (Mt 22:17-21).

The authority of the Church doesn't come from earthly thrones/governments.  In some places the Church actively works to overthrow governments.  Doesn't mean that they cannot work together in some matters.  Doesn't mean that if a congregation has 501c3 status that they are heretical and going into the lake of fire.

[facedown]

But what if the 501c3 status limits the pastor in what he may and what he may not say? Do you think this is okay for God if the pastor is under control of the state and if the state says he must not preach against gays then he can't do it anymore cause otherwise his church will be sanctioned?

[DennisS]

Maybe you've not heard of Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, KS?  Fred Phelps and his family, etc.?  Still considered a church, still desecrating the US flag, still protesting "fags" at funerals of soldiers, and generally being a nuisance.  Their 501c3 status isn't being challenged.

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