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[DennisS]

v. 11 "In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will"

This verse is kinda "problematic" cause it could be understood in a way that God controls EVERYTHING. If a guy on the street farts and causes a car crash then God was behind it.
Or if a young mother gets raped by a couple of criminals and then shot in the head then guess who pulled the strings? God.

Do you believe this?
Do you take comfort in the thought that whatever happens happens cause God wanted it so?

Then why even pray? Whatever God wants will simply happen.

Why does the bible say that we shall resist the devil? Why shall we do anything? Whatever God wants happens. 

Verse 11 from the KJV:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This also says "all things".  So, perhaps you can answer your own question, rather than going on a rant - trying to paint me into a corner when I'm not even in that room.  Do you intend to continue the baseless rants as opposed to dialogue that honestly asks questions?

[facedown]

What do you believe about Romans 12:3?  That each has the same measure of faith? 

Yes.

If you look at the verse in context, it is within an address to the believers.  Brethren...don't think of yourselves more highly than you ought...it is God who has given you faith.

Oh, so even though the text says every man it once again does not mean every man,right? That's a pure faith killer.
This sows doubt about wether the bible really says what it means.
But I guess this is the only option you have as a calvinist. All simply cannot mean all. If the bible says God wants all to be
saved then in reality he can impossibly want all to be saved and then you simply need explanations to sell to the people
why every does not mean every and why all does not always mean all.

The word used for every is:

hekastos

If every does not mean every then I am afraid the tree of life also will not bear fruits every months. That's sad.
Maybe God should have chosen his words more properly.

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

In this verse the same word is also used. I guess if every does not always mean every then also not everyone will be judged according to his works.

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[DennisS]

That's what I guessed - you think all have been given the same measure of faith.

If that were true, then why is there a measure?  It would simply be called faith.

But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? (Mt 6:30).

Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 8:10-12).

Why is there "little faith", and "great faith", and children of the kingdom who ought to have "the measure of faith", but are cast out?

“Why could we not cast it out?” 20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.” (Mt 17:19-20).

Jesus clearly speaks to the size/quantity of faith.  Is it recorded somewhere that ALL have the SAME measure of faith?  What of those who don't believe?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world (Romans 10:17-18).

Some hearing the Word receive faith, while others do not.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day (Romans 11:5-8).

Can we do anything to save ourselves?  Can we somehow purchase faith?  Or is it not the gift of God - the gift of grace?

Ah.  Now I see where you are coming from.  I was reading Romans 12:3 in the KJV:

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith (Ro 12:3).

Here's the root of the problem.  There is no definite article "the" in the final phrase in Greek, except the "the" prior to "God" (both "the" and "God" in the nominative case - meaning the subject of the sentence).  Literally it reads:  "to each as the God apportioned measure of faith".  Without "the" preceeding "measure", it can properly only be translated "a measure".  I have the text of the NT in Greek, and it lists the textual variants - and it doesn't show a "the" in any of the texts.

I see the NKJV corrects this...

as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Steven's Textus Receptus (1550) doesn't have a "the" there.  Elziver's Textus Receptus (1624) doesn't have a "the" there.  Scrivener's Textus Receptus (1894) doesn't have a "the" there. 

I can find absolutely no Greek text, and no reason at all to have a "the" proceed "measure" in this location (Romans 12:3).

[DennisS]

What do you believe about Romans 12:3?  That each has the same measure of faith? 

Yes.

If you look at the verse in context, it is within an address to the believers.  Brethren...don't think of yourselves more highly than you ought...it is God who has given you faith.

Oh, so even though the text says every man it once again does not mean every man,right? That's a pure faith killer.
This sows doubt about wether the bible really says what it means.
But I guess this is the only option you have as a calvinist. All simply cannot mean all. If the bible says God wants all to be
saved then in reality he can impossibly want all to be saved and then you simply need explanations to sell to the people
why every does not mean every and why all does not always mean all.

The word used for every is:

hekastos

If every does not mean every then I am afraid the tree of life also will not bear fruits every months. That's sad.
Maybe God should have chosen his words more properly.

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

In this verse the same word is also used. I guess if every does not always mean every then also not everyone will be judged according to his works.

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Try to get a grip on yourself. Who, or what, are you trying to defend?  Why is it that you have blinders on?

Can "all" be limited to a specific class, location, or group?  Of course!

So his fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought to him all the sick, those who were afflicted with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, and paralytics, and he cured them (Mt 4:24).

Was each and every sick person of earth brought to Jesus in Syria?  No, according to context, it was the sick of Syria.

That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and cured all who were sick (Mt 8:16).

Did he again cure all who were sick?  No, it was limited to those who were brought to him.

If he had already cured ALL who were sick, why would he have to do it again and again?  Isn't the context quite important?  Why can't you accept the fact that "ALL" can be limited based upon the context?


Now, in reference to all receiving "the" same measure of faith, or the erroneous idea that it isn't God who is the giver of faith, further consider these scripture texts:

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith (Gal 6:10).

Some have faith in Christ, and some don't.  Not all have received faith.

With all of these, take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one (Eph 6:16).

The Armor of God is the gift of God.  Further, it is fitted to each one - as can be understood when you are aware that not all wear armor of the same size.  This can also be understood as the Greek states the "Take up" of armor to be in the "middle" - such that we cannot just put it on ourselves, but we need assistance with these pieces of armor fitted to us.

We must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters,b as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly (2 Th 1:3).

Faith can grow!  So how is it that ALL must have the exact same measure of faith?

and that we may be rescued from wicked and evil people; for not all have faith (2 Th 3:2).

Not all have faith!  Their "measure of faith" was thus zero!

looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2).

Faith can be perfected - that is, made to be complete.

Will we need faith in glory?  No way!  That is when our faith is complete, when it has been "perfected" - when we know God.  So, faith is something that is temporary.

[DennisS]

.....
The word used for every is:

hekastos

If every does not mean every then I am afraid the tree of life also will not bear fruits every months. That's sad.
Maybe God should have chosen his words more properly.

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

In this verse the same word is also used. I guess if every does not always mean every then also not everyone will be judged according to his works.

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Pantos is the word for "every", or "all"

Hekastos refers to a distribution, and isn't translated "every" much of the time.  It can be "each", and can refer to any number of items without necessarily being all items of the class.  For instance, in Luke 6:44 it could properly be translated "both", as it refers to trees known for their fruit.  This immediately follows mention of bad fruit and good fruit (two classes/types of trees).  Is every tree known for its fruit?  What of trees that aren't fruit trees?  Another example is John 19:23 where the soldiers divided Jesus' garments into four parts - "one for each soldier".  If you say it is divided into four parts then given to every soldier - does this include every Roman soldier in the service everywhere?  That doesn't make any sense.  The distribution is to the four soldiers casting lots.

Are you going to acknowledge your errors and unfounded rants?  Context is important.

[facedown]

I am confused about this cause I always heard that all have the same measure of faith. It's kinda shocking if this shouldn't be true. Then all those pastors which are totally anal about the "the" are teaching something false. Great. 

Anyway, if not all have the same measure of faith or maybe no faith at all,
then not having faith or having too little faith would all be God's fault. Then how can Jesus rebuke the disciples for having little faith?

And another problem: How do you know you have been given faith by God at all? How do you know you truly have real saving faith? What if you only think you have faith and in reality you don't have it? 

[DennisS]

It is in the exercise of faith that faith grows.  This is much like the building of muscle - if you don't use it, then your muscle doesn't grow.  Yet, it isn't "bulging" faith that saves us - the faith of a little child is sufficient.

If someone was given no measure of faith, that is not the "fault" of God.  Do you not understand that the Potter can make some earthen vessels for noble purposes, and some for ignoble?  You may not like it, and yet God's ways are higher than ours.

You know whether you truly believe Jesus is the Savior - or whether you believe elsewise.

[David]

If someone was given no measure of faith, that is not the "fault" of God.  Do you not understand that the Potter can make some earthen vessels for noble purposes, and some for ignoble?  You may not like it, and yet God's ways are higher than ours.

Thing is I don't believe that some people are given no measure of faith. It's where man chooses to place his faith. I don't believe that the elect, prior to trusting in God have faith and those who will never trust God have no faith. I think this belief comes from confusion from incorrect fourth dimensional thinking.

God is able to see who will put their faith in Him. He gave us free will to choose. If He didn't and pre-programmed us, what glory is there in that? If you release a bird and it returns to you, it is yours. If it never returns, it was never yours. Doesn't count if you tie a string to the bird's leg and drag him back. What I believe is being said is that since He knows who will be His, because He sees us freely choose Him, He then ordains us. We were counted as belonging to Him simply because He has already seen all of us who will, choose Him.

Some people place faith in a lot of strange stuff...even so called Christians...so I reject that faith is only given to the elect. Once we place our faith in God, we then begin exercising our faith. God makes it grow and flourish.

David

[facedown]

To me this also makes no sense. God seems to put a high emphasis on free will. If he in the end programmed those who get saved and those who doesn't then it's simply a perverse theatre.
Then God is to blame for everything which happens and has happened on this planet.

Btw, you asked if somebody can resist the Holy Spirit:

Act 7:51  Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52  Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Obviously it is possible.
Or do you believe that they did not resist and that in reality God programmed them to resist Him and then even blames them for doing what he programmed them to do? That would be pretty insane don't you think? 

[DanielH]

If someone was given no measure of faith, that is not the "fault" of God.  Do you not understand that the Potter can make some earthen vessels for noble purposes, and some for ignoble?  You may not like it, and yet God's ways are higher than ours.

Thing is I don't believe that some people are given no measure of faith. It's where man chooses to place his faith. . . .

Some people place faith in a lot of strange stuff...even so called Christians...so I reject that faith is only given to the elect. Once we place our faith in God, we then begin exercising our faith. God makes it grow and flourish.

I heard someone say that the way to know if you're using the word 'faith' correctly is to replace it with the word 'Jesus' and see if your sentences still make sense.

The Bible states clearly that God does not want anyone to go to hell (2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18 and 33), but rather desires that the wicked turn from their sin and be saved, so I think it's problematic to use Romans 9 to say that he makes some people for the purpose of sending them to hell.

My study Bible says that when Paul calls the vessels of wrath 'prepared for destruction' the word 'prepared' means 'ready' or 'ripe for' not that God made the vessels for the purpose of destroying them.  Although a few verses earlier he says that some vessels are made, as Dennis quotes, for ignoble purposes, Exodus 9:16 shows that God's purpose in raising Pharaoh up was the salvation not just of the Israelites but the whole world and even Pharaoh himself.

To quote the Formula of Concord:

God caused His Word to be preached and His will to be proclaimed to Pharaoh.  Nevertheless, Pharaoh willfully stood up immediately against all rebukes and warnings.  Therefore, God withdrew His hand from him, Pharaoh's heart became hardened and stubborn, and God executed His judgement on him.

Is this the inevitable end of all ignoble vessels?  Isn't it true that we are all born in sin, and thus were all once vessels of wrath?  But Paul says "Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work." (2 Timothy 2:21)  So the dishonorable vessel can become honorable by God's mercy.

[DennisS]

We like to think we have a choice, and at some level - we do have a choice.  But when you dig deeper, you realize that the power of salvation, the power to grant a destiny, the power to move anything (wind, pebble, mountain, heart, mind, etc) lies entirely with God.

Even someone as down to earth as Tozer recognizes that we consider choice is the other side of the coin regarding the perogative of God.  He sees that we are "reacting" rather than "acting" in faith.

“Salvation is from our side a choice, from the divine side it is a seizing upon, an apprehending, a conquest by the Most High God. Our “accepting” and “willing” are reactions rather than actions. The right of determination must always remain with God.”

- A.W. Tozer, The Divine Conquest

We tend to think that we are powerful when we "find Christ", or "accept Christ".  But it is God who brings us to salvation.  We don't see this very clearly, and we don't see it from the other side.  We think we have created a rope on which we can climb into the heights of glory - but we fail to see that every fiber of that rope has been lovingly made by the Lord and extended to us. (Not to mention the power to "grasp" this rope of salvation.)

Perhaps we can more readily see the depth of difference if we consider the distance we are from God.  Consider even the holiness of God.  Here are some quotes from R.C. Sproul’s The Holiness of God to get us thinking about these things:

Only once in sacred Scripture is an attribute of God elevated to the third degree. Only once is a characteristic of God mentioned three times in succession. The Bible says that God is holy, holy, holy. Not that He is merely holy, or even holy, holy. He is holy, holy, holy. The Bible never says that God is love, love, love; or mercy, mercy, mercy; or wrath, wrath, wrath; or justice, justice, justice. It does say that he is holy, holy, holy that the whole earth is full of His glory.
…
If ever there was a man of integrity, it was Isaiah ben Amoz. He was a whole man, a together type of a fellow.  He was considered by his contemporaries as the most righteous man in the nation. He was respected as a paragon of virtue. Then he caught one sudden glimpse of a holy God. In that single moment, all of his self-esteem was shattered. In a brief second he was exposed, made naked beneath the gaze of the absolute standard of holiness. As long as Isaiah could compare himself to other mortals, he was able to sustain a lofty opinion of his own character. The instant he measured himself by the ultimate standard, he was destroyed—morally and spiritually annihilated. He was undone. He came apart. His sense of integrity collapsed.
…
It’s dangerous to assume that because a person is drawn to holiness in his study that he is thereby a holy man. There is irony here. I am sure that the reason I have a deep hunger to learn of the holiness of God is precisely because I am not holy. I am a profane man—a man who spends more time out of the temple than in it. But I have had just enough of a taste of the majesty of God to want more. I know what it means to be a forgiven man and what it means to be sent on a mission. My soul cries for more. My soul needs more.

[DanielH]

But those who end up in hell will not be damned because God declined to call them but because they themselves chose to go their own way.  Didn't C.S. Lewis say something like the only people in hell will be the people who chose to be there?  But this does not mean that the people in heaven are there because they made a better choice.  Those who are saved are saved because God foreknew, predestined, and called them as Paul says in Romans 8.

To use an analogy in support of one-way predestination over against double predestination, we cannot choose to be born, but we can choose to die.

[DennisS]

I heard someone say that the way to know if you're using the word 'faith' correctly is to replace it with the word 'Jesus' and see if your sentences still make sense.

How can I argue with something that someone once said?

I find it rather problematic.  Just do a simple search of the web with the words "Jesus" and "faith".  Then try substituting "faith" with "Jesus".  I think you will get a lot on nonsense sentences.  I did the search to see if I could find who this mysterious person is, or to see if I could find others saying such things.  It didn't pop up on my first screen though.  Some examples (remember to replace "faith" with "Jesus")...

Let us have faith in the power of Jesus to heal us and pick us up
Christian faith is in the shed blood of Jesus purchasing our
By faith I call on Jesus Christ, There is no better friend
Can Science & Faith Co-exist?
A MUST SEE! Faith healer gives a woman a hip replacement!

The Bible states clearly that God does not want anyone to go to hell (2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18 and 33), but rather desires that the wicked turn from their sin and be saved, so I think it's problematic to use Romans 9 to say that he makes some people for the purpose of sending them to hell.

Consider the contexts of these statements, and don't read into them.

2Peter 3:9 is in regard to timing of "the day of the Lord"...the Lord isn't being slow, but is long-suffering (patient).  Essentially, God is waiting for the full number to come in - but is NOT saying that all will be saved.  3:11-12 say what type of persons we ought to be.  The talk of that day of the Lord coming like a thief - doesn't this suggest that some will be surprised?  Some will not have repented.  Some will not be saved.  But take a step back and see who the letter is addressed to (in the first chapter, and then who is being addressed in the beginning of chapter 3.

Ezekiel 18:4 has God clearly saying that every living soul belongs to Him - and thus it is God who can decide what to do with each one.  The chapter goes on to give examples of those who will live, and those who will die.  God has the power to save all - but doesn't choose to do this.

Ezekiel 33:9 says the wicked man will indeed die.

My study Bible says that when Paul calls the vessels of wrath 'prepared for destruction' the word 'prepared' means 'ready' or 'ripe for' not that God made the vessels for the purpose of destroying them.  Although a few verses earlier he says that some vessels are made, as Dennis quotes, for ignoble purposes, Exodus 9:16 shows that God's purpose in raising Pharaoh up was the salvation not just of the Israelites but the whole world and even Pharaoh himself.

Sorry, I don't recall you stating what Study Bible you use.  It would be helpful if you would state any sources.  This is helpful in understanding the background and preferences of the editors of the notes.

I don't see how they could state that the underlying word translated as "prepared" or "made" for destruction should be translated as "ready" or "ripe for".  There are words indicating "ripeness" or "maturity", but those words aren't used here.  The BGAD Lexicon says the meaning of the root word, katartidzo:  to prepare for a purpose, prepare, make, create, outfit.  It is also used in Hebrews 11:3, "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God..."  The word includes much more than just the ripening part - it includes what comes before.

I'm sure the writer of the notes would like to save everyone...but this person (or persons) clearly lack the power to save.  Unitarian Universalists teach that all will indeed be saved.  But this isn't what Jesus taught.  They would ignore such things as Matthew 10:51 "Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division! 52 From now on five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three."  Jesus teaches that many will be divided over him - some believing, and some refusing to believe in even the most intimate of communities - the home.  In Commenting on Luke 12:49-53, the IVP New Bible Commentary says it this way:

At the time of Jesus, such divisions among family members would not be simply painful family fights. Such separation from blood family in order to form comparable relationships within the new "family" of followers of Jesus was a shocking - and extraordinary - demand.

Given the sharp sense of social stratification prevalent in antiquity, persons engaging in inappropriate social relations risked being cut off from the networks on which their positions depended. In traditional societies this was taken with deadly seriousness. Alienation from family or clan could literally be a matter of life or death, especially for the elite, who would risk everything by association with the wrong kind of people. Since the inclusive early Christian communities demanded just this kind of association across status lines, the situation depicted here is realistic indeed. The alienation would spread beyond the biological family to the larger kinship network formed by marriage.

To quote the Formula of Concord:

God caused His Word to be preached and His will to be proclaimed to Pharaoh.  Nevertheless, Pharaoh willfully stood up immediately against all rebukes and warnings.  Therefore, God withdrew His hand from him, Pharaoh's heart became hardened and stubborn, and God executed His judgement on him.

Is this the inevitable end of all ignoble vessels?  Isn't it true that we are all born in sin, and thus were all once vessels of wrath?  But Paul says "Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work." (2 Timothy 2:21)  So the dishonorable vessel can become honorable by God's mercy.

[/quote]

Surely your last sentence is entirely correct.  The human side of the coin regarding becoming honorable is more fully explained in 2:22

So, Pharoah is condemned by the Lutherans in the Formula of Concord.  And what about Judas Iscariot, or the unrepentant thief upon the cross?  And what about the unrepentant thieves of today - even those wearing the wool coat of a lamb?

In regard to ignoble vessels, aren't we really talking about bed pans - full of stinky crap?  If a bedpan is used to plant flowers, does that make the bed pan a flower pot now?  Or is it, like Pharoah, still a bed pan, an ignoble vessel, but used for the glory of God anyway?

I've stayed up too late here, as I have a busy day tomorrow.

[DennisS]

But those who end up in hell will not be damned because God declined to call them but because they themselves chose to go their own way.  Didn't C.S. Lewis say something like the only people in hell will be the people who chose to be there?  But this does not mean that the people in heaven are there because they made a better choice.  Those who are saved are saved because God foreknew, predestined, and called them as Paul says in Romans 8.

To use an analogy in support of one-way predestination over against double predestination, we cannot choose to be born, but we can choose to die.

We can choose to die?  Aren't you using the thoughts of a mortal in this instance?  Would you argue that we can choose to not be loved as well?  How is it that our choice forces something upon another?  Especially if that other is the definition of love, and that other is immortal?  Yes, of course a person can choose to die....then again, many attempted suicides are "unsuccessful".  But we are only talking about this mortal life, and not the immortal.  I think it might be more accurate to say a person can choose to end this life and go to the judgment.

Try being a Christian in a maximum security prison.  It's not easy.  Some there try to do stupid things there to get themselves killed - but even that generally doesn't work.  Try loving your enemy there, and them perceiving it as a weakness upon your part.  But here's the kicker - are all those who are in maximum security there by their choice?  You could argue that they are there because of a choice they made, and to a certain extent you would be right.  But what about those who made similar choices, but didn't go to prison because they weren't caught, or because of a loop-hole?

Woe to you who strive with your Maker,
earthen vessels with the potter!
Does the clay say to the one who fashions it, “What are you making”?
or “Your work has no handles”? (Isaiah 45:9).

19 You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9:19-23).

[DanielH]

Dennis, you emphasize God's power at the expense of His love and mercy.  But the Bible says God humbled Himself and made Himself nothing for the sake of His love.

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